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Thread: Two new racecars in NZ

  1. #601
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Hi All,

    Thanks for the ideas

    Bustamif, I'm totally behind you on this one, that's why the pressure returned to normal by turn 2 after the flag. Now comes the other questions, why not in the previous race? and any ideas how to get rid of it?

    Regards, Frans

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  2. #602
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frans View Post
    Hi All,

    Thanks for the ideas

    Bustamif, I'm totally behind you on this one, that's why the pressure returned to normal by turn 2 after the flag. Now comes the other questions, why not in the previous race? and any ideas how to get rid of it?

    Regards, Frans
    Maybe a dry sump engine? There's a bloke in NZ building one I'm told.....
    JohnW

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    Hi Frans,

    Even dry sump systems have their problems. Worn gears in the pump such as a chip or pitting can cause it. Porsche engines (dry sump) in the 1970’s had a problem at constant high revs around 8,000. The solution was to remove the oil cooler from the side of the engine and fit a small anti-froth swirl pot in place of the engine cooler with a larger front cooler.

    For your wet sump engine I would be looking at anything at all that has changed in the oil system including any fittings, cooler, pump and hoses. I recently heard of the internal wall on some very expensive oil hose that closed up the inside diameter on the scavenge side enough to reduce flow. The level on the dry sump tank went up as revs increased but the pressure remained OK.

    The last thing is of course the oil if you have not changed anything in the oil system but are using higher revs than before or the same revs for longer periods of time. That topic will get you 10,000 opinions on oil. Every person who drives a car has an opinion on which oil is best and why.

    If you can get onto a senior engineer with an oil company, provided the engineer is involved in the race division, you will get a good opinion. Back in the day, I recall some cars at Bathurst with sponsorship from a well-known “high performance” brand of oil had severe frothing problems. They used to fill the well-known brand containers with a genuine race oil. Oils aint oils! There was another high performance high profile oil with an additive which came out of solution at high revs in racing conditions, the additive blocked oil galleries and caused big failures before the cause was found.
    Last edited by Bustamif; 16th April 2018 at 08:02 PM.
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  4. #604
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    Bustamif, you are way out of my league. Very interesting and thanks!

    Years ago, BMC had a big problem in UK with Austin/Morris/Wolseley 1800s seizing up on motorways. The story that I read at the time was that all had a similar background, careful doctors and engineers who really looked after their cars. All had been topped up generously before the big trip. I believe the problem was frothing and they solved it by shifting the dipstick "FULL" mark a bit further down. If true, and I think it is, it makes perfect sense to me.
    JohnW

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  5. #605
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    Hi All,

    Queens birthday! At least one good thing from her.

    I've been doing some maintenance on the race car and noticed the vibration from the brakes in the last 2 races. I also noticed some underbody panel damage from a time I went farming. That cause a small restriction in the waterpipe going to the radiator and one of the carrier brackets bent out of proportion as well. All that is now replaced or panelbeated and ready to go in. Oh, and a new accelerator cable because I noticed at the last race that a strand is broken which I gently wound back into its position temporarily. That is very dangerous because if that strand goes into the outer casing there is not a spring that will return it.

    The discs, all newly skimmed and grooved.





    The under panels, well abused but back in basic shape.



    And the saddle is replaced with a new one from my sponsor.



    Regards, Frans.
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  6. #606
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Hi All,

    Attended our prize giving Buffet Dinner on Saturday night and looked forward to the meal because there was no chance of a prize due to all the doings and screwings during the season. Well, wrong! I did get a prize. A Booby prize!

    As posted previously on this thread: "Test done and passed. But.........involved in a get together. Started from the 3rd row and moved up to be sandwiched between an Alfa and BMW 2002 Ti in the 1st row before turn 1. The Alfa on the left closed the gap (right hand turn) and I turned him sideways although I was pulling out of the sandwich at the time. Then the BMW hit him in the side and a Volvo hit the BMW from behind pushing him harder into the Alfa. Bad damage on the Alfa and couldn't race further, BMW went home. I have body damage left and right side and wheel alignment bent."

    And then my way of seeing it: "I keep on thinking who's at fault. Then I feel it is not me. I'm the one that has to do it all myself. Not one of the others work on their own cars. So I'll never look for trouble. cos I'm an angel you know."

    Whatever, I was officially blamed for the incident/accident by the superiors who knows everything and who was involved in this skirmish as well. So I said "Okay I'm sorry" and got it over and done with.

    The prize was handed to me with a speech explaining the severity of this incident where the 7 entries of this informal race of ours was reduced to 3 because of the 4 cars involved. (If I do it, I do it well!!) The message was; "Please measure the gap before you take it"



    Regards, Frans.
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    They be some good mates.

    I dare you to attach it your parcel shelf in effort to warn others

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  8. #608
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    Or mount it to a front guard with the tape measuring outwards 500mm
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    Very funny - my undertray looks like that too.... Here it is after the road from Menindee to Ivanhoe in NSW, before I beat it out, yet again, and gave it some black paint, also "again".
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Two new racecars in NZ-underbody-november-2017.jpg  
    JohnW

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  10. #610
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    Very funny - my undertray looks like that too.... Here it is after the road from Menindee to Ivanhoe in NSW, before I beat it out, yet again, and gave it some black paint, also "again".
    John, Clearly its still doing the job it was designed for all those years ago!
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  11. #611
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    Quote Originally Posted by renault8&10 View Post
    I've used a VDO gauge and sender on my r10 for about 12 yrs or more with no problems.
    Hi All,

    So, I'm changing my mind and going back to what was said in these threads at the time. The mechanical gauge is sluggish even though it was bled. It doesn't stay bled. I went to 'Classics and Caffeine" today with the race car after he was standing for a long time. About 10 mins away from home the pressure still wasn't giving the correct reading.

    I have decided to bite the bullet and buy a VDO gauge and transmitter. That will arrive soon and replace the mechanical gauge. I have no theory why it wasn't good but I have noticed this for a while. All you other guys were right!

    Regards, Frans.
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  12. #612
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frans View Post
    Hi All,

    So, I'm changing my mind and going back to what was said in these threads at the time. The mechanical gauge is sluggish even though it was bled. It doesn't stay bled. I went to 'Classics and Caffeine" today with the race car after he was standing for a long time. About 10 mins away from home the pressure still wasn't giving the correct reading.

    I have decided to bite the bullet and buy a VDO gauge and transmitter. That will arrive soon and replace the mechanical gauge. I have no theory why it wasn't good but I have noticed this for a while. All you other guys were right!

    Regards, Frans.
    Very strange. I guess they are Bourdon gauges and eventually wear out? My VDO unit is mechanical and dates from 1974, always very responsive (bled) and on its original nylon tubing. Still, a new one ain't a bad idea. Have you a big red light too?
    JohnW

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  13. #613
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    Very strange. I guess they are Bourdon gauges and eventually wear out? My VDO unit is mechanical and dates from 1974, always very responsive (bled) and on its original nylon tubing. Still, a new one ain't a bad idea. Have you a big red light too?
    You need a separate o/p switch set at your chosen minimum pressure to operate a proper light show.....like this.....
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Two new racecars in NZ-oil-pressure-warning-light.jpg  
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

  14. #614
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    Nice!! Do you have a spare one of those?
    JohnW

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  15. #615
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    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Triumph-N...-/310432420569

    The idea when rallying at night was to flood the interior with an unhealthy red glow!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Two new racecars in NZ-oil-pressure-warning-light-2.jpg  
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    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

  16. #616
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    Hi All,

    Due to the differences and ifs and buts I made an adapter tonight and I'm going to mount both, a mechanical and the new VDO electrical gauge. Then I will check their behaviour and decide on one or maybe just leave it and have a backup. When the VDO arrived I made a calibration setup to check it's accuracy. It was reading about 50 kPa to high in the mid-range. I did a basic calibration by adding 33 ohm in series and the mid range is now accurate. Min and max is still out but that doesn't bother me. The resistance range is not linear so to get it accurate right through the range will cost some fancy electronics.

    So this is what I came up with. This adapter still has a spare that is plugged for the moment. Maybe some of it is over the top but rather this way than forever doubting and wondering.





    I will let you know of the results.
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  17. #617
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    That's a nice fitting Frans. 50 kPa is about 7 psi, so 10% error in the top end oil pressure (70 psi) I see in the old VDO mechanical gauge on the R8. I guess what you really are looking for is change but I'd want it closer than a 50 kPa error in absolute pressure too.

    Bourdon gauges, the mechanical ones, are supposed to be accurate to about 1% of full scale reading if I recall, so that magnitude of error on the electrical gauge is much too great. I'll be really interested to see how the two gauges compare.
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    JohnW

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  18. #618
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    It is strange that your gauge doesn't keep the oil (I take it that is what you mean when you say it doesn't stay bled). The take off should be just above the outlet of the filter, which should have an anti-drain back valve so in theory the oil column up to the gauge should stay full at all times after bleeding. Maybe your filter is playing up?

    I have never had this problem with the only mechanical oil pressure gauge I ever used. That was a factory BMW unit bought NOS in 2000 but manufactured in 1965. It was much more responsive than the electrical units as well.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

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  19. #619
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    It is strange that your gauge doesn't keep the oil (I take it that is what you mean when you say it doesn't stay bled). The take off should be just above the outlet of the filter, which should have an anti-drain back valve so in theory the oil column up to the gauge should stay full at all times after bleeding. Maybe your filter is playing up?

    I have never had this problem with the only mechanical oil pressure gauge I ever used. That was a factory BMW unit bought NOS in 2000 but manufactured in 1965. It was much more responsive than the electrical units as well.
    My mechanical gauge definitely keeps the tube full of oil. Definitely. I've bled it maybe once or twice if it has been disconnected and the oil emerges at the gauge end almost immediately I slacken the nut a wee bit. I'm amazed how good it has been actually, with the indicated pressure the same now as in 1974, 60 psi cruising at 3000 rpm pretty much.

    Cheers
    JohnW

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  20. #620
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    I think that was a design must on these gauges, otherwise they would be useless.

    Mine was a special option only available for the BMW 1800 TISA but somehow I managed to get my grubby little hands on a brand new one left in the warehouse for umpteen years. It fit nicely in the main combination gauge where the lesser models had warning lights (which were shifted on the sides when installing this option).

    Never had any problems with it and looked brilliant with all the gauges around the dial. Very schmick.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    I once had a oil filled industrial pressure gauge as oil pressure gauge in a Pug 106. Worked fine but after a while the silicone oil seemed to become contaminated by engine oil.
    An internal leak I guess.

    Could something similar be the cause here?
    Last edited by ReidarUF; 11th July 2018 at 03:35 AM.

  22. #622
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    Hi All,

    Hi ReidarUF, I know the gauges you are talking about. We have used it in the industry and they are actually filled with Glyserine. The Bourdon tube, that is driving the needle, and the casing of the gauge is totally sealed from one another so you must have had a leaking Bourdon tube. Maybe it was over pressured before you got it. I have not seen oil on the floor or in the gauge so I don't think it is a similar cause.

    About 4 - 5 weeks ago Johan and myself went to Taupo for a play day. All went well and we enjoyed the day a lot. The spectators had a good show because during the last 2 races we chose to be in the same starting grid. I went ahead and he chased me all the way. Right up my tail, then on the last run he went ahead and I chased him all the way again. I would give my left ear for a video of that. I think sometimes when there is no pressure the enjoyment is so much more.

    When I got home I unpacked the car and when I went out to bring the race car in I heard this bad rumbling thrust bearing. I have 2 spares here and decided to change it this week. On Wednesday I started the car to turn it around and the noise was gone, so I went for a drive thinking that it may need to be hot to make the noise. Nothing as quiet as a bed lamp. I started to doubt myself but thought I might redo some wrapping on the exhaust that has come loose. Did that but could not get over the thrust bearing so I decided to pull the engine in any case just to have a look. There we have it, spinning it by hand made a rumble. Glad I did do it!

    Now I have the oil gauges in as well and I have bled the mechanical gauge again and it is much better. Maybe I didn't bleed enough oil out, who knows.

    With all this issues going on at our home track, I am having my own race this coming weekend at Taupo again with some new guys I've never met. Don't know what they are racing, might be Skylines and Evos, but I am going to enjoy myself. I will make an effort to get some incar footage.

    Regards, Frans.
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  23. #623
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    Hi Frans,
    Good on you for finding a way to continue with your passion, and good to see Johan is out there doing it too.
    Thanks to both of you for keeping the Renault flag flying.

    Henry
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  24. #624
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    A short video of me and Johan at the playday mentioned in my previous post. Strange how much it looks like crawling all the way but not if you are in the car at the time! As Johan said to me that incar footage of F1 looks reasonably slow as well.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhmMlY1vXPw&t=378s

    Frans.
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  25. #625
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    Enjoyed your footage Frans. Yes it looks like a nice cruise.
    Cockpit looks awesome
    Thanks for posting and keep them coming
    ďListen very carefully, I shall say this only once.Ē Cheers. John

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