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  1. #476
    Fellow Frogger! rubyalpine's Avatar
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    I tend to agree with Schlitz's technical input, but when resources are limited, sometimes it is best to "keep it simple" and hope for another good 4 year run from the same again.

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  2. #477
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    I wonder if it wouldn't be easier to just weld the diff satellites and planetaries and go back to racing.

    In fact, having just realised the 'box is a rare 5speed, I start to think Frans was lucky it wasn't the 'box (and worst of all perhaps the crown/final drive) that gave way. Perhaps this setup is good to keep as an inbuilt failure point to protect the box.

    Looks like there might have been a lot of twisting, so I am starting to doubt my own theory above. It starts to look a bit more like one of those plastic shear failures in the link posted by Col above. The steel must be a fair bit softer than I thought. What steel are you using, Frans?
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 28th September 2017 at 06:22 PM.
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  3. #478
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    I wonder if it wouldn't be easier to just weld the diff satellites and planetaries and go back to racing.

    In fact, having just realised the 'box is a rare 5speed, I start to think Frans was lucky it wasn't the 'box (and worst of all perhaps the crown/final drive) that gave way. Perhaps this setup is good to keep as an inbuilt failure point to protect the box.

    Looks like there might have been a lot of twisting, so I am starting to doubt my own theory above. It starts to look a bit more like one of those plastic shear failures in the link posted by Col above. The steel must be a fair bit softer than I thought. What steel are you using, Frans?
    Actually that is good suggestion Schlitz. The diff cage from a 330 box would probably fit, just need to bolt the crown wheel that Fran's is using now to the diff cage.
    Regards Col

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    Just make sure something relatively easy breaks outside the transaxle not in the middle of it.

    The more I think about it the more I imagine upwards and downwards alternating forces at the inner end of the half-shafts from cornering loads at the wheel rim, the direction depending upon the direction of the corner. I can imagine that this accounts for the strong step-wear at the inner end of those splined output shafts. I guess the u-joint female splined bit is harder than the output male spline?

    The wheel bearings have little or no resistance to those forces as they wear a tiny bit and the leverage ratio is large, so potentially there's a lot of movement at the inner end relative to small movement at the wheel end, all applied at the outer part of the u-joint, which sits on the inner shaft spline with no other support. Not large forces perhaps, but non-axial forces all the same.

    I should stop speculating and wait for those who know more than I do.....
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    Hi Fran,
    Sorry about your failure. Here is my with some very old metallury background too.

    That twist indicates the shaft is just not strong enough to take the load. It has gradually yielded over time at maximum stress, between the diff end and the uni joint shoulder. The final failure is fatigue due to the fluctuating stress and it has occurred at the transition to solid where the twist has to stop and so the stress is concentrated. The root of the splines has initiated the fatigue cracks but it has actually held on to the end so there is no excessive concentration of stress in the design.

    That other side shaft is not far behind I would say too as the stress is the same. The direction of racing may favour it perhaps rather than the shorter splines. Hard to say from my computer keyboard

    In such a design one way to reduce the stress concentration and reduce fatigue failure may be to make the shaft a bit more flexible where there are no splines or grooves or sharp shoulders or steps. I could give it some thought if you like !

    Basically the stress is no more than in the axle half shaft. But is is made worse by the sudden changes of size and shape. The axle is long and can flex a bit to spread the load more.
    cheers Jaahn
    Last edited by jaahn; 28th September 2017 at 08:40 PM.

  6. #481
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by COL View Post
    Actually that is good suggestion Schlitz. The diff cage from a 330 box would probably fit, just need to bolt the crown wheel that Fran's is using now to the diff cage.

    That is what drifters do with their cars to help slide the rear easier.
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  7. #482
    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    I broke 9 original Renault 330 sunwheels in my R8 over maybe 7 years of competition, the difference in the break in mine was they looked as if they had been parted off on a lathe. I have been running R16 outputs (sunwheels) for many years now with no breakage, but also limited competition.
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  8. #483
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    That is what drifters do with their cars to help slide the rear easier.
    We did this with our speedway cars as well. It is a cheap way to get a spool diff.
    Regards Col

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  9. #484
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    In circuit racing (which is what Frans races) Porsche have used solid spool diffs and welded diffs in rear engined cars to win many endurance races and sprint races for many years.

  10. #485
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Hi All,

    On a slightly different note. Maybe one should always just grin and bear it. When I installed the engine this damaged radiator hose went by unnoticed. I hate to think what could have happened at the track.

    A few years ago on AF the agriculture water pipe that I used for the front radiator came under fire from a few AFs. I claimed all was okay and others said that the hoses are only rated to 80 degrees and pressure ratings drop as temperatures rise and ....and ....and.

    I must confess that I could have lost a brand new engine because of the plastic pipes. In defense of the plastic pipes I will admit that I made a mistake and that is the reason for this near catastrophic failure. I used a galvanised saddle from the sparkies, that was too small, to keep the hose in place. It looked okay when I fitted it because the pipe was cold and hard but as time went on the saddle deformed the pipe and caused the cracks as seen in the pictures.

    This is the only issue I could see after inspecting the other areas. The rest of the pipe is still as fitted and this is after 8 years of racing. The first event for the car was in 2009. I'm not saying that you shouldn't install metal or aluminium but keep in mind that fitting these radiator hoses (agricultural pipe) are not more than 2 hours of work and the cost is not even to be mentioned. And aluminium?





    Regards, Frans.
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  11. #486
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    Unusual failure mode for HDPE - it's pretty tough stuff. You run a pressure sensor on the cooling system if I recall correctly?

    I'd back you keeping the same pipe material, myself, especially now you know what to avoid. Eight years is pretty fair I reckon.

    Cheers
    JohnW

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  12. #487
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    Frans
    Looks like a heat treatment issue on the diff spool. Ideally using a good shock resistant steel suitably heat treated to give it a springy quality, would be the way to go. EN19t or 24t would be suitable for this.
    Locked axles are not allowed in the UK for motorsport
    Could I interest you(or anyone else) in my spare gearbox which I am selling of it is a 330/385/365 hybrid close ratio with the big diff which would take a Quaife qdf 2x
    I have sold both my 8's and am clearing through the spares now which are now down to last few goodies
    good luck with your project for the future
    Steve
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  13. #488
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frans View Post
    Hi All,

    On a slightly different note. Maybe one should always just grin and bear it. When I installed the engine this damaged radiator hose went by unnoticed. I hate to think what could have happened at the track.

    A few years ago on AF the agriculture water pipe that I used for the front radiator came under fire from a few AFs. I claimed all was okay and others said that the hoses are only rated to 80 degrees and pressure ratings drop as temperatures rise and ....and ....and.

    I must confess that I could have lost a brand new engine because of the plastic pipes. In defense of the plastic pipes I will admit that I made a mistake and that is the reason for this near catastrophic failure. I used a galvanised saddle from the sparkies, that was too small, to keep the hose in place. It looked okay when I fitted it because the pipe was cold and hard but as time went on the saddle deformed the pipe and caused the cracks as seen in the pictures.

    This is the only issue I could see after inspecting the other areas. The rest of the pipe is still as fitted and this is after 8 years of racing. The first event for the car was in 2009. I'm not saying that you shouldn't install metal or aluminium but keep in mind that fitting these radiator hoses (agricultural pipe) are not more than 2 hours of work and the cost is not even to be mentioned. And aluminium?





    Regards, Frans.
    I'd like to share a cautionary tale from a few years back!

    When the Hamilton Island power station was first built it included a bank of Rolls Royce DV8 625 KW engine which all used a common cooling system. (Designed by a local, not Rolls Royce.) Things went well until peak seasonal electrical demand meant all engines and generators were required to run at full stretch, shortly after which the plastic coolant pipes turned into spaghetti and promptly dropped the entire coolant load onto the engine room floor. The Murphy switches saved all but one engine, which lunched itself quite terminally.
    Apparently the plastic pipe system was the right size, had the correct flow rates etc, but the fact that they were plastic had not been conveyed to the RR Engineer who signed off the system thinking that they were the customarily required steel issue..

    A replacement 4.25 Tonne engine was air-freighted out to Australia by RR via Canadian Pacific at vast expense, but it did not not arrive in the scheduled two days. It arrived ten days after leaving the UK, having been flown to Australia, failing to be unloaded in Sydney and it was eventually discovered in Hong Kong before being flown back to OZ.

    Two new racecars in NZ-dv8-genset.jpg
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  14. #489
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    Ouch. Who paid for that little debacle I wonder? Great story.

    It does depend WHAT plastic of course. Some will handle 100 degrees perfectly well, others soften at much lower temperatures.
    JohnW

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  15. #490
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    Ouch. Who paid for that little debacle I wonder? Great story.

    It does depend WHAT plastic of course. Some will handle 100 degrees perfectly well, others soften at much lower temperatures.

    Ha.

    You didn't figure it out yet?

    It is you and I who pay for all these debacles, of course.
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  16. #491
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    Ha.

    You didn't figure it out yet?

    It is you and I who pay for all these debacles, of course.
    I've been to Hammo more than a few times, so I guess I've paid!
    It's another lovely day! Again!

  17. #492
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Hi All,

    Back to the gearbox failure. Thank you for all the input ideas and discussions.

    I have sort of made a decision to replace like for like. The question that comes up in my mind is "if you make that unbreakable, where is the next break going to be?" If this output shaft is the weak spot then it is a $150.00 breakage. It is better than internal failures such as gears or maybe the casing.

    I need to get over the immediate disappointment and think logically about the good times I had and lets hope for the future good times lying ahead.

    Any votes for that?

    Regards, Frans.
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  18. #493
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    There has been AF discussion on drive shaft rebuilds some time ago. Some opinion was to wait until something breaks then repair it. My practice is what most full time teams do (and aircraft operators) and that is to have a log for all key components life expectancy and maintain or replace accordingly. Gearbox, discs/rotors, clutch, engine etc. My CV's and driveshafts are checked at 6 hrs running time. Cages checked and crack tested and shafts checked for splines showing signs of twisting or fatigue. Engine rebuild after two seasons depending on rev limit and the number of times the rev limit is exceeded.

    I followed the advice of my old mentor Frank Gardner who often said you cant win a race or championship parked on the side of the track with a broken component.

    The life you got out of those axles is pretty good in competition and i assume you do standing starts ?. I would go with what you had used with some success and life them accordingly.

  19. #494
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    "Some success" equals quite a few years.... I think like for like is a good, practical plan. Which components would you prefer NOT to break.....
    JohnW

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  20. #495
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    Frans,
    I agree with your thinking all the way. When you are part of a multi-multi $$$ sponsored team, things could be different, but as a privateer, I believe it is best to keep things simple, do what you know/can afford and hope to expect the same 8 year life again.

    Henry
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    Absolutely agree Henry. Since I had to design, improvise and build my own cars, if something broke and took out a few more parts in the process, I did not race again until I saved up, scrounged for some used bits and made do with what I had. My point is, that when you have to make do, you get pretty experienced in examining used and worn parts knowing if it is going to last two weeks or two years before replacement.
    It is not necessary to spend big bucks to buy the most expensive parts if you can get less expensive bits to do the same job. The problem is knowing how hard and for how long you can push the less expensive bits before they break.
    The problem is one of time, not the money. It takes a lot of time to pull components apart, measure, examine, crack test, make a decision on replacement or not then reassemble. It is a constant process and a lot of hard work.
    I believe that Frans is on the right track to replace the broken shaft and keep the current design so as not to transfer load into the box or diff area. He knows the life of that part and will get a few seasons on the replacement without introducing too many variables into the setup.
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  22. #497
    COL
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frans View Post
    Hi All,

    Back to the gearbox failure. Thank you for all the input ideas and discussions.

    I have sort of made a decision to replace like for like. The question that comes up in my mind is "if you make that unbreakable, where is the next break going to be?" If this output shaft is the weak spot then it is a $150.00 breakage. It is better than internal failures such as gears or maybe the casing.

    I need to get over the immediate disappointment and think logically about the good times I had and lets hope for the future good times lying ahead.

    Any votes for that?

    Regards, Frans.
    I would get two made so that it is just a matter of swapping them out and no waiting for another to be made.
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    Regards Col

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  23. #498
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frans View Post
    Hi All,

    Back to the gearbox failure. Thank you for all the input ideas and discussions.

    I have sort of made a decision to replace like for like. The question that comes up in my mind is "if you make that unbreakable, where is the next break going to be?" If this output shaft is the weak spot then it is a $150.00 breakage. It is better than internal failures such as gears or maybe the casing.

    I need to get over the immediate disappointment and think logically about the good times I had and lets hope for the future good times lying ahead.

    Any votes for that?

    Regards, Frans.
    Good times?!

    That's an understatement if ever saw one.

    I was thinking back at the starts you filmed and put on youtube for us, Frans. Remember when you started about eighth or so on the grid and obliterated all but one of the cars in front when you took off? This is the price. Not bad, all things considered. I would pay 150$ any day to do that in my car, even only once. You have written history. Good times. Ha! That's an 8 Gordini not a Ferrari! Is there another one that goes like that anywhere? I mean WE have had a good time watching you take off! Next time have someone shoot the moment from outside the car.

    COL plus one.

    In fact I think I made some such comment a bit before.

    What would worry me is the fact that your engine is obviously pushing some of the rest of the car close to its limits. I think Bustamif's suggestion of having some sort of log is a good idea given how many things on your car would be irreplaceable.

    Now you know how long the spider lasts so next time, if you do make two, you know when to replace the one in the car just before it breaks.

    Back to an older idea, you should put together a calendar or something with your little beast and we will pay for your spider lock (not that we shouldn't pay anyway if only for the videos, shots and stories technical or not you have contributed here).
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    Hi
    Yes. I was involved in testing train seats at one time. Finally first production seat had to be cycled through 10000 movements of every part which moved. Change seat direction and dropping a 90KG "bum" on the seat 10000 times from a set height. Towards the end a circlip on a hinge pin failed. The engineers came and looked at the parts and said there is an inspection/ maintenance routine and we will put replacement at half life as a satisfactory cure for that.
    Knowing where to look for problems is good
    Good luck Jaahn
    PS we also had to simulate a vandal setting fire to them with a "standard" newspaper in a beer carton ?
    Last edited by jaahn; 18th October 2017 at 10:17 AM.

  25. #500
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Wow.

    Meanwhile, in communism where we, the people, owned everything you would have been thrown in jail for setting fire to public property. Not a bad idea.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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