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  1. #26
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tljakes View Post
    Would the 16TS brakes fit direktly onto the R8 disks? What pads do you then use on the calipers and are they still available?
    No, we can't be that lucky! There is a bracket to be made and some milling to be done on the 16TS disc rotors. Then you can use Mazda RX7 pads.

    Frans

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    Thanks Frans,

    Then Golf calipers with Opel disks still sounds like a good option. Just the mounting plate to be made and the 3 holes to be drilled on the rotors to be fitted on the renault then.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-man View Post
    Hi Frans,

    I'm guessing you have competition pads in your 8 ? If so, where can you buy them ? Have you fitted a remote booster to yours ? I can't imagine racing my 10 with it's standard brakes - they're pretty ordinary
    Hi J-man,
    No, I have normal street pads in the race car, that is why I need to replace them after only 16 laps. Can't buy them but you can have a race compound put on if you supply the correct backing plates. I do not have a booster at all and I like it that way because the brakes are very good and you can slam your foot down on the pedal as hard as you wish. The car stop very well and you don't get your wheels to lockup. Just another thing you don't have to worry about.
    I will do my next race again with the standard brakes but I will change to racing fluid. I don't think I will be ready with the 16TS conversion.
    I have never complained about the brakes, only about changing the pads every 2 heats and on Sunday the heat got to the fluid and caused the failure.
    Make sure you have your discs skimmed with new pads and you'll be OK. I can't complain, Johan doesn't complain, and Ross never complained.

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  4. #29
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    Default two new race cars in N Z

    SOME THINGS TO LOOK OUT FOR ON R8 R10 BRAKE FAILURE
    As frans said brake fluid with a high BOILING POINT
    Rear drive shaft bearings which are worn kick the pads and pistons back into the caliper housing and with the next brake application you have to take up all the displacement hence the feeling ooops no brakes.
    At this stage pumping the brakes 2 to 3 times does the trick but no time for this when you are racing.
    Meca parts sell a mintex racing pad which fits the standard caliper. It works well but be carefull it needs warming up.
    Jimmy

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    Default two new race cars in N Z

    I forgot
    braking has a lot if not everything to do with getting rid of heat. SO you need metal [brake disks] with some meat as thick as you can to a point then you need ventilation when the metal becomes too thick.
    the metal will absorb and let the heat free to the atmosphere.
    Meca Parts sell a set for about 150 to 200 NZ$ and they are 8mm thick and appear to have a bit more carbon than the origional STEEL ones Renault fitted to their cars.
    sorry I am not a MECA PARTS rep but these things work

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frans View Post
    Hi J-Man
    Make sure you have your discs skimmed with new pads and you'll be OK. I can't complain, Johan doesn't complain, and Ross never complained.

    Frans
    Thanks Frans,
    I think that's my main problem then, my rotors have a dodgy surface on them from the car being in hibernation sitting for 7 years some of that out in the weather with just a cover over it plus they're under size as well. Looks like some new standard pads & rotors should be fine for my car then (it's definitely no race car). I was thinking I'd need to do a conversion so thanks Frans you've saved me the worry !
    cheers,

    John

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    Hi Frans,

    So i just chuck out the brake booster then and run directly from the cylinder directly connected to the brakes?

    If it can work it seems like a plan!

  8. #33
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    Default two new race cars in n z

    allow me to jump in Frans.A car designed to run with a booster normally uses a lager bore master cyl ,like the G uses a 22mm bore.The bigger bore is used to take up the increased volume needed in the booster and the booster then has a boost multiplication based on amongst others the diaphragm size of the booster.This gives you the feel of vauum assisted brakes.
    On a G if you bypass the booster your brake pedal will be soft and to counteract that you have to change back to a 19mm master cyl to get the sharpness high pressure back.So bypassing is not the solution.

    jimmy
    jimmy

  9. #34
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    Thanks Jimmy,

    That actually makes sense!

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    A good read and loved the videos, that track looks sensational, I will be visiting NZ in January so looking forward to see it after 26 yrs away. Seem to have much more interesting cars in races there, for me anyway.

  11. #36
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    Default Update time.

    Hi All,
    Me and Johan had another huge race event this weekend over both days at the Taupo Track.

    It was my 1st time on this track layout which was the longest track at Taupo.

    http://www.tauporacetrack.co.nz/defa...=9&cid=16&aid= It was quite a busy layout with 14 turns per lap. I had 4 laps practicing with a lap time of 2 mins 2 secs and my fastest time went down to 1 min 59secs. The racing was good with some very tricky corners. Turns 2,3&4 throws the car's balancing around so much that if 1 of the turns is not taken right then you have a huge problem at the next turn. Turn 9 is fast and the gearing is of such that it is too fast for 3rd but too slow for 4th. Turn 11 is another tricky one that actually becomes tighter as you exit the turn and I ate dust there on a few occasions. There is a flexible marker to mark the end of the ripple strip that I hit twice. But both marks will buff out. Turn 12 was good for overtaking if you out brake the other guy.

    I have some footage from the incar camera and will upload it to Youtube. That was of our 1st race.

    The double rings that I mentioned earlier on doesn't work. That is the thinner rings with a spacer. We have a huge oil consumption complete with blue smoke and a lot of blow by. So much that the breather bottle of 1L runs over after 8 laps. I can only think that this method works on street cars and not on racing cars because my stock G runs fine on the ring+spacer method and so does HarryA's R10 with the G motor.

    Back to the drawing board. If I want thinner rings then I will have to look out for other car's pistons that can be made to fit. For the next event I will go back to the thicker rings and re-evaluate my priorities.

    I will post a link when it is on Youtube.

    Regards
    Frans.
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  12. #37
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    Good work Frans!

  13. #38
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    Default YouTube clip

    Hi all,
    I have uploaded another You Tube clip for you to see.
    this is from Saturday afternoon and as I had only 4 laps practicing you might note that I tried a few different gears and different lines because I didn't know the track yet.(good excuse!) I have edited the video to show only the 1st 4-5 laps. Were the video ends is how the race continued and became boring. That is how we finished. The Torana that I took down the straight is a 6 cylinder one.
    I have a lot of respect for the Fiat 128 that overtook me. It is very quick and the owner is a good driver as well, he did a lot of Go-Kart racing. The engine started life as 1500 SOHC out of a X19 and was developed from there.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5oaaIOgkus

    Regards,
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    Default Great to see

    Rocketship off the start line! Yes, the gearbox change you were talking about is needed, revlimiter in top and gearchanges midcorner...
    Yeeha

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    Hi Frans

    Was good to meet you in Aulkland and if we had more time would have been at the track but the one day we had in Taupo was spent going to Rotorua.
    So impressed with all the race cars we saw on the road back to Taupo on Sunday. Such cars we do not see in WA unfortunately. The racing scene looks very well supported in NZ with Hampden Park being used as we drove passed and the Taupo one, I wil look at the videos when back on a fast connection.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frans View Post
    Hi all,
    I have uploaded another You Tube clip for you to see.
    this is from Saturday afternoon and as I had only 4 laps practicing you might note that I tried a few different gears and different lines because I didn't know the track yet.(good excuse!) I have edited the video to show only the 1st 4-5 laps. Were the video ends is how the race continued and became boring. That is how we finished. The Torana that I took down the straight is a 6 cylinder one.
    I have a lot of respect for the Fiat 128 that overtook me. It is very quick and the owner is a good driver as well, he did a lot of Go-Kart racing. The engine started life as 1500 SOHC out of a X19 and was developed from there.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5oaaIOgkus

    Regards,
    Frans.
    Hello Frans.
    I am racing with a 1134 (1148 in volume) here in Sweden, and it is interesting to listen what you have done. I have a problem with the brakes, but first I tell you a little about my car.
    The rules here in Sweden are a little different to what you have. We are, for example, not allowed to widen the wheel track, and therefore we can't lower the car by cutting off the springs. I have instead modified the beam over the gearbox, so the gearbox is 4 cm higher up in the beam. And we are not allowed to use 13 inch alu-wheels, if they not are in the papers from F.I.A. in Paris (the paper is called "Appendix K") for R8 1134.
    I have polished crankshaft and connecting rods in the engine (I enclose a picture).
    I have a rev limiter adjust to 8500 rpm. When I listen to your car it sounds a little lower. I enclose a short clip from a test we have done. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyhTqqD0pmw

    Now to my problem with the brakes:
    I have changed the master cylinder to a new one with 19 mm diameter, no servo, new brake hoses and overhauld calipers. I have no brake reducer for the rear brakes, the one which normaly is mounted on the rear beam.
    The calipers are filled with brake fluid before they are put together, and very carefully bleeded after mounted, so no air is left. But still it feels like air in the system, I can press the pedal down to the floor, if I press hard!
    After that I disconnect the pipes from the master cylinder and plugged the cylinder. Now the pedal is hard!
    Then I mounted back the pipes, and disconnect the brake hoses and plugged them. The pedal is still hard!
    After that I connect the calipers again, one by one, and tested after each one, and the pedal will be softer and softer, and when the last one is back the system is as from the beginning, I can press the pedal down to the floor. Any ideas?
    Thankful for help.
    Gösta
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  17. #42
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    Default R8 Brakes

    Hi Medicon

    Nice looking car.

    Sounds like you may have air trapped in the brake calipers or maybe when you release the pedal air is being sucked in past the seal, just a thought.
    Regards Col

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    My Floride S was similar when I bought it, perhaps not quite to the floor but pretty close, depite having had the brakes redone before I got it. I have since changed hoses, fitted a new master cylinder and it was still no better. Then I found that the two front caliper pistons were not lined up correctly and that got rid of some air and it all improved but it is still not what I would expect although it is now similar to my sons R10. I would assume you have checked the caliper piston is correctly alined. I meant to bleed it again after some kilometres and haven't bothered but I must put it on the to do list.

  19. #44
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    Frans,

    I've got the drawings you sent and i'm modeling them up - should have them done by end of week.

  20. #45
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    Hi Medicon,

    Beautiful car you have. It sounds like you do have a lot of problems with the rules and regulations. We are lucky that the series we are in relaxed a bit on those type of regs and that creates a very big entry list. We have over a 100 registered racecars and entries needs to be in very quick or you will be refused. It depends on the amount of cars that is allowed for every track.

    My rev limit is lower than yours 7000. I am only in my 1st season and have a lot of sorting to do. I will increase the limit at a later stage but not to 8500. Your short stroke crank will accept the 8500 easier than my long stroke.

    Brakes. Attached is a drawing and in Fig 1 & 2 I have enclosed the basic things that normally goes wrong when the brakes are reconditioned. Fig 1: make sure that the DOT faces upwards in the caliper and that the back of the caliper looks like Fig 2 when the DOT is on top. The half spring washer with the bolt can be removed to clean and then it could be put back wrong. It MUST be put back with the opening upwards to allow air to bleed out.

    Bleeding. This is my theory and I might be wrong. Look at Pic 3. I found that the bleeding pipe (transparent) always has a bubble in on the top of the bend. When you bleed the brakes and the fluid fills up in the left side and then runs down into the bleeding bottle the air remains in that top half. When you close the bleed screw the air remains. If you can bleed the brakes and force the fluid in with a speed then the fluid does not form a bubble on the top. Now, this type of bend can also be anywhere in the pipes on their way to the calipers and there could be more that one bend as well. That creates plenty of air bubbles. I have a cap that I use to bleed the brakes and I have a nipple on top as seen in the picture. I connect that to my compressor and I can force a whole reservoir through in 20 - 30 seconds. When I put the pressure on I go to a wheel and put the bleeding pipe on and open the nipple and then you can see the fluid coming out so fast that it cannot make a bubble. The last time I did it, there was no need for pumping afterwards at all. Make sure you stop before the bottle is empty!

    Regards
    Frans
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  21. #46
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    I use a similar system built from need to bleed my brakes without assistance. You don't need too much pressure, I use a spare wheel with a nozzle cut off a cheap footpump. I also included a small plastic tap (the kind used in home reticulation systems) in the line so I don't have to disconnect the nozzle every time I have to replenish the fluid. Works a charm every time.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frans View Post
    Hi Medicon,

    Beautiful car you have. It sounds like you do have a lot of problems with the rules and regulations. We are lucky that the series we are in relaxed a bit on those type of regs and that creates a very big entry list. We have over a 100 registered racecars and entries needs to be in very quick or you will be refused. It depends on the amount of cars that is allowed for every track.

    My rev limit is lower than yours 7000. I am only in my 1st season and have a lot of sorting to do. I will increase the limit at a later stage but not to 8500. Your short stroke crank will accept the 8500 easier than my long stroke.

    Brakes. Attached is a drawing and in Fig 1 & 2 I have enclosed the basic things that normally goes wrong when the brakes are reconditioned. Fig 1: make sure that the DOT faces upwards in the caliper and that the back of the caliper looks like Fig 2 when the DOT is on top. The half spring washer with the bolt can be removed to clean and then it could be put back wrong. It MUST be put back with the opening upwards to allow air to bleed out.

    Bleeding. This is my theory and I might be wrong. Look at Pic 3. I found that the bleeding pipe (transparent) always has a bubble in on the top of the bend. When you bleed the brakes and the fluid fills up in the left side and then runs down into the bleeding bottle the air remains in that top half. When you close the bleed screw the air remains. If you can bleed the brakes and force the fluid in with a speed then the fluid does not form a bubble on the top. Now, this type of bend can also be anywhere in the pipes on their way to the calipers and there could be more that one bend as well. That creates plenty of air bubbles. I have a cap that I use to bleed the brakes and I have a nipple on top as seen in the picture. I connect that to my compressor and I can force a whole reservoir through in 20 - 30 seconds. When I put the pressure on I go to a wheel and put the bleeding pipe on and open the nipple and then you can see the fluid coming out so fast that it cannot make a bubble. The last time I did it, there was no need for pumping afterwards at all. Make sure you stop before the bottle is empty!

    Regards
    Frans
    Hello Frans and all other.
    I forgot to tell you that I am familiar with the DOT on the calipers. The man who overhauled the calipers was not familiar with that, so I have to fix it before use. So it is nothing about that. A peculiar thing I heard from another man racing with Renault, is that he has removed the half spring washer and bolt, and plugged the hole in the end of the caliper! He use the plunch without half spring washer and bolt. Perhaps that will help.
    I have the same system for bleeding as you, and as I said, I have tried to plug the hoses, and I can't feel any bubble when that is done. So no air in the pipes and the hoses.
    I am wondering if something is so weak in the system, so it will be bent or something when I press the pedal, for example the disc brakes, they are only 7 mm thick.

    By the way, about the 13 inch alu-wheels. The rules says that if someone can prove that 13 inch alu-wheels was used on 1134 before 31/12 1965, then it is OK to use them. But it has to be a picture or articel in paper from a race, not only a private picture. I have found such a picture, but it was just after 31/12 1965, in the beginning of 1966, and that was not accepted. So, if anyone have anything I will be very happy.

    Have a nice day.
    Gösta (Medicon)

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    Hi Medicon

    If the calipers were overhauled and the dot was positioned in the wrong place then it is more than likely the repairer didn't know that the gap in the spring washer must align with the dot on the front of the piston (as per Fran's drawing) and if this is the case then there will be air trapped in at least one of the calipers.

    There is a workaround to resolve this described here : Heads up for all R8/10 owners - brakes

    P

  24. #49
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    Correct, and as I answered Frans above, I have checked it up and the gap in the washer is pointing to the DOT. I have also done exactly as you say in your instruction, and loosen the caliper and turned it around when it is free, to get out all air.
    Gösta

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    Gosta

    Yes, sorry I mis-read your last post re the hoses.

    The next thing to examine is the way the caliper "grips" the disc. One way to do this is, without using the brakes, bring the car to a standstill and get under the car as best you can and have an assistant apply the brakes firmly. Note the way that the caliper moves. If there is little no discernible movement AND the pads are wearing evenly then all is well - i.e. the caliper is aligned squarely with the disc. If they twist a bit when the brakes are applied then there's work to be done!

    Common culprits are: a twisted brake hose, a bent caliper brackets, worn or bent caliper locating arms and incorrectly installed anti-rattle rubbers. The same applies to the rears but also check for wear in the wheel bearings (as mentioned above) and - this is a biggie - the flat plate that locates the caliper via a pin on the back of the axle carrier tube is bent.

    These are often bent because over the years people tend to remove the caliper without slackening the big brass nut on the handbrake adjuster far enough off. If these are bent then they hold the caliper at an angle off the disc and some braking effort is required to realign the caliper before pressure is applied to the pads.

    P

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