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Thread: Two new racecars in NZ

  1. #426
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Great photograph Frans. I guess that's almost the only good news apart from the fact that the piston didn't break up!!!

    Bad luck - although, as you say, not bad performance for 7 years considering all.

    Good news for the Matra perhaps....

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    JohnW

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  2. #427
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    I would keep that piston. It may still have some story to tell you and even if not, it's still a great coffee table conversation starter.

    What is the difference in strength for the Fiat (or other) pistons?
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  3. #428
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    Hi Frans,
    Well with all the high revs and high compression, I think you have had your monies worth from those pistons, although it would have been nice if they had lasted until the dry sump motor was ready.
    There are some FIAT 1500 pistons for sale on Galotta Garage, E-bay sales, the only problem is the price...$400,00 plus shipping!

    Hope to see the G back on the track in the not too distant future.

    Cheers, Henry
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  4. #429
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    Whoops! I think that's U.S. Dollars. Even more in N.Z. $

    Henry
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  5. #430
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    One doesn't realise the stresses and strains in a race car compared to that in a road car. Even in low class backyard type racing. Look what I found when trying to turn the engine for a better position measuring the pistons.

    The crank pulley collapsed. The crack is stressed related with its ragged edges although it remained intact. I can't get the center piece out by hand and I didn't notice it when I removed the belt to take the head off. This could have been adding to the reason the piston broke as well. The timing would have been altered by almost 20 degrees as seen on the little pointer.





    Seen from the front, this is what it looks like. It is very well camouflaged.



    I think I will rebuild the engine completely and thoroughly check every spinning item. There could be more hidden stuff.

    Regards, Frans
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  6. #431
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    I don't get it. What is the stress on a c'shaft pulley? It's not pulling much, what an alternator and a water pump?

    I would more inclined to believe that the high revs on their own would disintegrate the pulley with no added stress.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  7. #432
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    I don't get it. What is the stress on a c'shaft pulley? It's not pulling much, what an alternator and a water pump?

    I would more inclined to believe that the high revs on their own would disintegrate the pulley with no added stress.
    Very possible in what you're saying, but the tension of the belt puts stress on the pulleys and that I think that is why harmonic balance pulleys fail as well. Not to speak of the "whip" in the belt itself at high revs. That is visible when just revving the motor a bit.

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  8. #433
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Hi All,

    So the forged pistons arrived from the US of A and they look good. I ordered them 10 thou bigger so that I can resize the barrels to get a new seating surface.

    That is where the problems started. The engineering works did 2 sleeves and encountered problems at the bottom where they are very thin. The size differed because the sleeve expands when the cutter and none gets to the bottom. The 3rd one cracked. Then I gave them another sleeve and that was no good as well.

    Then I started looking for old 1400 sleeves but to no avail. The engineering works wanted to have 1 sleeve made but I didn't like that. It just didn't sound right having 3 x 1400 sleeves and one manufactured one. Eventually I got 16TS sleeves from Ross and started the modification of the 16TS sleeves to fit in a Gordini block. I spoke to the engineering works and we decided to resize the block where the sleeves fit and I will then make the new sleeves bigger to fit that and then we will have enough meat at the bottom so that they can be resized safely.

    This is not a quick job but it is done and now the sleeve protrusion exercise will start. Once that is done the re-bore should be the same as a normal engine because I had a torque plate made as well to hold the sleeves in place and torqued up to the correct figures.

    This is the damaged sleeve edge.



    This is one of the 16TS set that I got from Ross.



    The modification process started.



    The lathe work is now done, next is the milling machine to cut the flats on the sleeves so that they can fit next to each other in the block and then I will have to make spacers to lift the 16TS sleeves about 3mm because that is how far the seat is different from the 1400 sleeves.



    I was surprised to find that the 1400 sleeves was actually taller than these.

    After all this it will be a good outcome because everything is uniform through all the parts and not a bit of this and then of that.

    I will follow up as progress gets under way.

    Regards, Frans.
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  9. #434
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    So from initially thinking that I might have a broken ring (beginning of the year) it has developed as a complete rebuild. At last I got the modified 16TS sleeves in and made a torque plate so that they could re-bore the sleeves under normal stress as what the head would've pressed down. Then I noticed that through the years the block's distortion around the headbolts became clearly visible so I had the block skimmed as well. It was merely just straightened because there are still some tell tale marks visible on the surface.

    I am now prepping the block for a quick respray and then I will have to pocket the pistons before assembly can start . While waiting for the block I reconditioned the sump and its baffle plates as there were a few stress and vibration cracks visible. The rocker shaft is now spaced with spacers as well meaning that the springs between the rockers is removed.

    The new pistons does not have circlip grooves and I have made Teflon plugs that will go in. There are a few opinions about these plugs on Google but apart from my previous experience in the ZA car, they work fine provided that the gudgeon pin is fully floating.

    <img src="http://deffe.com/images/2017/07/29/fpiston1.jpg" border="0">
    Last edited by Frans; 29th July 2017 at 08:46 PM.
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  10. #435
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    Hi Frans,
    It would be interesting to see what capacity you end up with.

    Henry
    When I find my feet,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I'll know where I stand!

  11. #436
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Please ignore my previous post. I couldn't download pics so here they are.

    So from initially thinking that I might have a broken ring (beginning of the year) it has developed as a complete rebuild. At last I got the modified 16TS sleeves in and made a torque plate so that they could re-bore the sleeves under normal stress as what the head would've pressed down. Then I noticed that through the years the block's distortion around the headbolts became clearly visible so I had the block skimmed as well. It was merely just straightened because there are still some tell tale marks visible on the surface.





    The new pistons does not have circlip grooves and I have made Teflon plugs that will go in. There are a few opinions about these plugs on Google but apart from my previous experience in the ZA car, they work fine provided that the gudgeon pin is fully floating. These are the new bushes for the camshaft. The old ones were really worn to such an extent that they had a ridge where the cam bearings were running. I expect a good oil pressure increase with this being in spec again.





    This is the Torque plate that I made for re-boring. It makes it easier for the engineering works to do and it applies the correct pressure on top of the sleeves as when the head is torqued down which means a more accurate and straight cylinder wall.
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  12. #437
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rubyalpine View Post
    Hi Frans,
    It would be interesting to see what capacity you end up with.

    Henry
    Hi Henry,

    With the new pistons I'm sitting with 1438cc of Renault power

    Frans.
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  13. #438
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    More progress made.

    Milling the pockets in the new pistons.



    Finished piston.



    Installed and bottom end done complete with cam,sump etc.





    Frans.
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  14. #439
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Oh my!

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
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  15. #440
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    A bit more progress.

    The head is now on and torqued. As can be seen, I have replaced the little springs on the rocker shaft with spacers to completely eliminate side play of the rockers. That in turn helps to stabilise the pushrods at high rpms and minimise harmonic vibrations.

    I think I will fill it with oil tonight and drive the oil pump with a drilling machine and get the oil pump primed and pressure up for startup.





    Regards, Frans.
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  16. #441
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    You can't beat a well turned out 8G motor!

    Just noticed if the crank pulley problem and wondering if it was resolved. Would the later type two-piece pulley with the separate spindle and solid pulley would be more suitable than the earlier "one-piece" pressed metal pulley? There would also be the opportunity of custom building a pulley to suit the Renault centre.
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  17. #442
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Hi,

    Simon, when I built the engine some 8+ years ago it was all completed and then I added the MegaJolt components. That meant that the pulley had the toothed wheel added welded on and installed without balancing. It lasted 7 years of racing. This time I did the same and had the pulley balanced after I welded the new toothed wheel on and I was surprised to see how much was taken off before it was OK. So I'm hoping that it would last longer and now I can keep my eye on it as well.

    I did the oil thing last night and it looked good. Oil was oozing out the places that it should.







    That means the moment of truth is close.

    Regards, Frans.
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  18. #443
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Hi All,

    All came together and I started the new engine on Saturday morning. It was in a rush as I had to leave for social commitments and I just ran it for a few minutes. It sounds fine and revs freely. I will have to check a few things tomorrow evening as the water pump seal is leaking badly and the alternator is not charging. The water pump should come right with a bit more running as it done this before a few times. The alternator, well there are a few things that could have gone faulty. 1) internally when I cleaned it or 2) in the programming that turns it on and off when racing. It will not likely to be in the program but more so in the inputs that goes to the PLC.

    I will follow up on this.

    Regards, Frans.
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  19. #444
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    Hi Fran. I just gave BARNIE'S engine the drill onto the oil pump shaft trick as well. Wondered why I got a wet feeling in my shoes!! Forgot to screw the oil filter on !! I wont do that again, what a mess on the carpeted floor of the garage. Oh well, onward and upward. Second time up worked perfectly, but had to blank of the camshaft oil feed holes (without the camshaft fitted) and the oil feed hole to the timing chain adjuster.
    Guess what, even at probably 50 RPM on the oil pump shaft it blew the blank out of the timing chain adjuster oil hole. Pretty happy with that.
    Cheers
    Phil

  20. #445
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Phil, I can imagine the frustrated embarrassment and there is nobody to blame. I poured 4l of oil onto the floor twice in my life by not installing the sump plug.
    I would re-think/do the test you did when all is assembled and the oil can escape through the bearing journals and cam journals and rocker shaft lube holes and make-up a press. gauge as well. HarryA and I have popped an oil filter with too much oil pressure when the relief valve got stuck.

    So I started the race car again tonight and it ran a few minutes. The water pump stopped it's leak and the alternator is charging, but the light stays on and the voltage at idle is sitting at 15.6 V. Is that too much? I think the regulator failed.

    So, the bussiness end is still stripped from many things but this will come together with time.

    I had a look at the photos and maybe I should've resprayed the engine compartment because it looks shitty now. Too late, maybe because that is called multi-tasking and I don't have the IQ for that.





    Regards, Frans
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  21. #446
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    Thanks for the encouragement Frans. Don't feel so much of an idiot now. I reckon when you get real busy and just want to move on with the build always something goes wrong. I completely dismantled the oil pump and I can guarantee it is all working perfectly so oil filter is safe. Yes I will be doing a complete assembly oil pressure check with a pressure gauge attached. When I build a car engine up I treat it with the same rules that apply to a piston aircraft engine. I dismantled, cleaned and built Dakota DC3 engines in the RAAF for 5 years and then worked the Engine test stand for another year finally finished up working on Neptune aircraft doing major engine servicings on the Wright Compound 3350 engines. Loved every minute building/fixing engines.
    Your engine looks great and I bet it roars into life as it should. I love those fancy Rocker Box/Breather fasteners, very sporty. Good call about the water pump, that's experience talking.
    OK, must be off. Hopefully I have some R16TS pistons arriving tomorrow so all being well, it's onward and upward from here on in.
    Cheers
    Phil

  22. #447
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Hi All,

    It has been a good day for the race car.

    I got the alternator fixed so that I can now turn the car on and off like a normal car, with the key. Not stalling it or any extreme methods. Thank you for the tips in the right direction and for future reference I altered a drawing to point out the wire and also the direction of the diode that is required.



    Then he got a wash and topped up with water because of the leak and we set of for the Warrant of Fitness. First 4 km for the new engine and it feels good. Arrived at the WoF and the pump stopped leaking. I guess it is because I have a new one on its way! He passed the test and is now warranted and legally on the road again. I can now put a few km on and get the head torqued and all the little niggling thing checked and done.

    First thing I tackled this afternoon is to start the process of putting a mechanical oil pressure gauge in. I had 2 electrical ones and I'm damned if I can trust any of the 2. I have a 6mm plastic tube and the 3mm oil pressure tube fits nicely in it. That acts now as the protective outer sheath. The tubing they supplied is too short and I'm making the joint where the tubing goes through the firewall in front and I have a bulkhead fitting there. The best way to join it. Space in front is a problem with all the extras I have in there and you cannot even get your hand in there.

    Regards, Frans
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  23. #448
    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    What happened to the big red motorcycle tail-light on the dash with an electric sensor set at the worry pressure? I found it very informative and when steps were taken to turn it off everything went nicely.....
    It's another lovely day! Again!

  24. #449
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    I've used a VDO gauge and sender on my r10 for about 12 yrs or more with no problems.
    KB


  25. #450
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    Quote Originally Posted by renault8&10 View Post
    I've used a VDO gauge and sender on my r10 for about 12 yrs or more with no problems.
    I'm thinking an electric sender gauge would be quicker to react as well, compared to a mechanical type with such a long tube.
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