R19 droping into third (limp home)
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  1. #1
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    Default R19 droping into third (limp home)

    Hi,
    what is your experience with this problem?
    The drop out seems to be random, but observing the warning light i suspected the brakelight switch.

    I've suspected the multifunction switch and the alternator. Then i judiciously cut holes into the brake light switch an cleaned it out with brake cleaner - and hey presto - no more dropping into limp.
    My mate had the same problem and he pulled the switch apart and repaired it
    (a new one is $A34.-). Repairing it solved his problem as well.
    The switch has three contacts and Hayes manual only shows two (well, we all know it is pretty basic).
    Anyone with the same experience?

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    Last edited by JoBo; 15th May 2005 at 09:21 AM.

  2. #2
    Tadpole
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    Emm.. My 19 does that, then the electrical light comes on.. i just switch the car on and off and it resets it self..

    ALthough i have noticed now even when i turn the car on its stuck in 3rd... eeek.

    So you think it could be the brake lights that are doing it? i took it to virage motors and they did some stuff on the computer but didnt fix the problem completly.

    Any Advice?

  3. #3
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    Not the brake lights (but make sure they all work). The brakelight switch. There could be other reasons but it's probably not the computer.
    Bad contacts (as in the switch). My old one before cleaning had 2.6 ohm and the new one shows .6 ohm. It could be the multi function switch etc.
    I routered a couple of holes into the switch and sprayed it with brake cleaner. this lowered the resistance and it hasn't dropped ito third since. Also bought a new switch as the old one is sure to pack it in.
    Don't go to the dealer as i did - go to Ken (Caravelle in Box Hill). Dealer 34, Ken less than half.
    If you get desperate i could help you swap a few bits and see how it goes.

  4. #4
    Good Sport danielsydney's Avatar
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    This is a built-in behavior with the car. It actually means that the gearbox needs looking at. Mine did that and it needed repairing. I would suggest if in sydney take it a Renault service centre or Colliers automotive in Granville.

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Default R19... limp home.

    To me this is just another of the Regies attempts to confuse the enemy.
    To find a faulty brake switch the cause of a transmission problem. A component that to a normal thinking person is totally remote from the transmission.
    Still what can we expect from a company that can't adapt a dipstick to check the auto fluid level. Finding it necessary to call in Druids and sharmans [sp?] to perform this simple operation.

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts Europa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildebeest
    Still what can we expect from a company that can't adapt a dipstick to check the auto fluid level.
    Not can't.. won't.
    '05 Pearl Black Mégane 5-Door LXR(Daily Driver), '75 Trak Yellow R16TSA (Parts Car), '74 Midnight Blue R17TS (Rebuilding), '73 457 Blue R17TL (Parts Car), '72 Alpine White R16TL (Retired), '69 Sunburst Brown R16TS (Awaiting Rebuild), '68 "Appliance White" Europa (Stored)

  7. #7
    Good Sport danielsydney's Avatar
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    Not can't.. won't.<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

    It is annoying not to have a dipstick.

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts Europa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danielsydney
    It is annoying not to have a dipstick.
    ..but what would you do with it if you had one Daniel?

    Does the C3 have one?
    '05 Pearl Black Mégane 5-Door LXR(Daily Driver), '75 Trak Yellow R16TSA (Parts Car), '74 Midnight Blue R17TS (Rebuilding), '73 457 Blue R17TL (Parts Car), '72 Alpine White R16TL (Retired), '69 Sunburst Brown R16TS (Awaiting Rebuild), '68 "Appliance White" Europa (Stored)

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildebeest
    To me this is just another of the Regies attempts to confuse the enemy.
    To find a faulty brake switch the cause of a transmission problem. A component that to a normal thinking person is totally remote from the transmission.
    Still what can we expect from a company that can't adapt a dipstick to check the auto fluid level. Finding it necessary to call in Druids and sharmans [sp?] to perform this simple operation.
    Its not all bad. At least there is a filler hole one can poke a threded rod into to check the level.
    Krautcars (at least a BMW) i looked at has no trans. dipstick either.
    The brakelight switch is connected to the trans. computer as well as the brakelights - obviously. Not a bad idea when you think about it.

  10. #10
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildebeest
    To me this is just another of the Regies attempts to confuse the enemy.
    To find a faulty brake switch the cause of a transmission problem. A component that to a normal thinking person is totally remote from the transmission.
    Still what can we expect from a company that can't adapt a dipstick to check the auto fluid level. Finding it necessary to call in Druids and sharmans [sp?] to perform this simple operation.
    And to confuse who the enemy is!!

    JohnW

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Check the voltage at the trans computer fuse, both with ignition on and with a load attached. I had trouble with the AR4 trans in an R21 (same trans basically) that would drop into 3rd whenever i hit a window switch or put the demister on or pushed the cigar lighter in. Seems that old froggy electrics were draining power from the aux circut and causing the power to drop to 7 volts - enough to shut down the trans computer and cause it to go into limp mode. (this was after one "specialist" told me i needed a new computer, and another said i needed a rebuilt transmission. )

    i think it was a right hand drive problem - all power to the dash came from the left side of the car, and had a couple of meters of wire and a few connectors more than a left hand drive car would have had.

    cured simply by relaying the trans computer power supply from a more reliable source and bypassing a few connection plugs - too easy
    I tried to drown my sorrows in alcohol, but the bastards learnt how to swim

  12. #12
    Good Sport danielsydney's Avatar
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    ..but what would you do with it if you had one Daniel?

    Does the C3 have one?<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
    If the C3 had one i would check it and top up the fluid in need. What else would one do?

    I believe the C3 also doesnt have one.I was also told that the C3 auto transmission fluid is a white in colour substance. I will report back though as Id like it changed soon coming up to 70K. Not sure if the timing belt needs changing at those miles?

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts Europa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danielsydney
    If the C3 had one i would check it and top up the fluid in need. What else would one do?
    I put it to you that one of the reasons for the absence of a dipstick is to stop people contaminating the oil by unneccessarily checking it.

    The fact that you haven't had to do this (ie. your transmission isn't having problems) for the last 60,000+ kilometres just shows how modern construction techniques have improved. You have no oil leakage, therefore there is no need to check it, and the dealer will change the oil at the recommended service interval.
    '05 Pearl Black Mégane 5-Door LXR(Daily Driver), '75 Trak Yellow R16TSA (Parts Car), '74 Midnight Blue R17TS (Rebuilding), '73 457 Blue R17TL (Parts Car), '72 Alpine White R16TL (Retired), '69 Sunburst Brown R16TS (Awaiting Rebuild), '68 "Appliance White" Europa (Stored)

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by danielsydney
    If the C3 had one i would check it and top up the fluid in need. What else would one do?

    I believe the C3 also doesnt have one.I was also told that the C3 auto transmission fluid is a white in colour substance. I will report back though as Id like it changed soon coming up to 70K. Not sure if the timing belt needs changing at those miles?
    And here lies the problem- do you do it with the engine running or not? park or neutral? at what temperature? do you know what fluid to top it up with? are you carefull enough to avoid contaminating the fluid with dirt or lint off the cloth? Clearly you must know exactly what you are measuring and under what conditions to get accurate results.
    What does bug me somewhat is that renault has made this level check part of the XR25 tool and not part of an onboard diagnostic system.
    Thankfully, the 4141 in my 25 has a dipstick and LOTs of instructions on how to use it.
    Farmerdave

  15. #15
    Good Sport danielsydney's Avatar
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    Yeah the R25 is a great car....

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by danielsydney
    Yeah the R25 is a great car....
    I'm pleased you think so- they're great value for the money .

    My point was that a level system is better for most owners than a dipstick that requires a list of instructions for use. The 25 has a dipstick, it means that if I need to check the oil I have to go through a procedure to get an accurate reading- but I can do it whenever, wherever. For most people having the oil checked at service time is more than adequate.

    Farmerdave

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by farmerdave
    My point was that a level system is better for most owners than a dipstick that requires a list of instructions for use. The 25 has a dipstick, it means that if I need to check the oil I have to go through a procedure to get an accurate reading- but I can do it whenever, wherever. For most people having the oil checked at service time is more than adequate.
    Spot on. And even Renault was under no illusion that a 4141 Automatic was ever going to be 100% oil tight!
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  18. #18
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Default R19 limp home

    Quote Originally Posted by farmerdave
    I'm pleased you think so- they're great value for the money .

    My point was that a level system is better for most owners than a dipstick that requires a list of instructions for use. The 25 has a dipstick, it means that if I need to check the oil I have to go through a procedure to get an accurate reading- but I can do it whenever, wherever. For most people having the oil checked at service time is more than adequate.

    Farmerdave
    Farmerdave,
    You say a procedure is involved to get an accurate reading. You don't know what a procedure [performance] is until you do a trans refill and level check on an R19 using the XR25 test box!! Add an extra hour to your service bill!
    This carry on has been the guts of my ongoing argument on why Renault and the French can't/wont align themselves with the rest of the world and use a simple dipstick.
    To overcomplicate this procedure is asking for trasmission strife. To have to go to your Renault agent, oh! he's not there anymore, to get your oil level checked is really convenient. Not.
    In a few years time when the XR25 box starts playing up do you think the agent is going to replace it. What then?

    Well done those 19 owners who've overcome the above by devising a simpler level check. See earlier posts.

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts Europa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildebeest
    Farmerdave,
    You say a procedure is involved to get an accurate reading. You don't know what a procedure [performance] is until you do a trans refill and level check on an R19 using the XR25 test box!! Add an extra hour to your service bill!
    This carry on has been the guts of my ongoing argument on why Renault and the French can't/wont align themselves with the rest of the world and use a simple dipstick.
    I'm under the impression that most modern auto transmissions are sans dipstick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildebeest
    To overcomplicate this procedure is asking for trasmission strife. To have to go to your Renault agent, oh! he's not there anymore, to get your oil level checked is really convenient. Not.
    In a few years time when the XR25 box starts playing up do you think the agent is going to replace it. What then?
    Renault agents are probably already using the newer CLIP diagnostic computer rather than the XR25.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildebeest
    Well done those 19 owners who've overcome the above by devising a simpler level check. See earlier posts.
    Is it possible that the complicated check is to ensure that the correct oil level is in the gearbox, at the correct temperature, thereby avoiding seal leakage issues due to overfill? (very easy to do with a dipstick - must have level ground, gearbox must be at operating temperature etc. etc.)
    '05 Pearl Black Mégane 5-Door LXR(Daily Driver), '75 Trak Yellow R16TSA (Parts Car), '74 Midnight Blue R17TS (Rebuilding), '73 457 Blue R17TL (Parts Car), '72 Alpine White R16TL (Retired), '69 Sunburst Brown R16TS (Awaiting Rebuild), '68 "Appliance White" Europa (Stored)

  20. #20
    Good Sport danielsydney's Avatar
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    For those who are not that mechanical I would be careful about sticking things into a moving engine however. Caution must be exercised here.

  21. #21
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    I was told by a trans place that the level (hot and running in nuetral) should for all intents and purposes be at about the sump pan gasket level, or a tad above. This always worked for me with a chopped and marked up Pug trans dipstick I kept in the boot.

    But if its dropping into limp mode, its an electrical fault, and nothing to do with fluid level. Check the computer power supply with a voltmeter (at the fuse) first.
    I tried to drown my sorrows in alcohol, but the bastards learnt how to swim

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Default R19 Limp Home...

    Quote Originally Posted by Europa
    I'm under the impression that most modern auto transmissions are sans dipstick.



    Renault agents are probably already using the newer CLIP diagnostic computer rather than the XR25.



    Is it possible that the complicated check is to ensure that the correct oil level is in the gearbox, at the correct temperature, thereby avoiding seal leakage issues due to overfill? (very easy to do with a dipstick - must have level ground, gearbox must be at operating temperature etc. etc.)
    I wasn't aware of the new CLIP diagnostic. Let's hope they've rethought the gearbox fill / check procedure as well.

    I was on the scene, Volvo mech, when the Renault 19 was released and attended most Service schools. I know full well of the necessity to check with the trans at the temp indicated by the XR25 in order to avoid leakage etc.
    Yes, a reasonably level working area is required for checking the level but if you happen to overfill a normal gearbox you simply drain off the extra without the aid of diagnostics. Something most mechanically minded owners can do at home.

  23. #23
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    But if its dropping into limp mode, its an electrical fault, and nothing to do with fluid level.

    That's my understanding as well.
    An overfilled AD4 would throw ATF into the diff which requires a different grade of oil. What seals would an overfilled trans. blow? Granted, it's not advisable to overfill but there is a vent.
    If you underfill (not massively) you soon know as the trans. flares when doing sharp right hand turns (could be left - forgot).
    Checking the oil temp. is not a big deal. Most reasonable multimeters have a temp probe facility.

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