Wheel/tyre Upgrade Rcs 172
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  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    Icon7 Wheel/tyre Upgrade Rcs 172

    Hi all,

    I've just joined the forum and love reading your stories!

    Questions to those whom have upgraded their wheel and tyre package on their Clio Sports 04 model.

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    I'm looking at changing from factory 15'' wheels to 17'' wheels running a 205 /40/17 on a 17" x 7'' rim (BBS wheight 8kg) with a 40 off set.

    The RTA said it's within legal limits and insurance company also agrees; my question here is "will the wheel set up change any aspect of handling or rubbing of wheel to guard as the increase is only 1" wider and the rolling diam. remains the same" and will this have any effect on factory w'ty?

    Thanks

  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! Reno's Avatar
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    hi mate and welcome

    a few people on ozrenaultsport.com have 17" rims on their clios. i believe if you get a 205/40 profile you shouldn't have any rubbing. with a 215 tyre you will rub at the fron in particular on full lock.

    handling and ride quality is different i am led to believe.

    16" rims are the ultimate compromise with ride comfort/handling

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! biologist's Avatar
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    Yes for sure the ozrenaultsport site has discussions miles long on tyres
    and rims but as some of us understand its likely that the OEM Michelin
    tyres for the current RSClio may become available in Australia due to
    a fair demand from owners. If this happens then I would suggest waiting
    for these tyres as they are just phenomenal and, of course, sourcing
    yourself some 16" rims.
    I know the range of 16" rims is smaller but these Michelins are a superb tyre.
    The cup models run the PE2 version (stiffer sidewalls) of this tyre -
    Michelin Pilot Exalto 205/45 R16 83V
    Worth waiting for....

    Cheers,
    Biologist
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  4. #4
    Tadpole
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    Icon7

    "defiene" different.....Good or bad, as it will make a great deal for me, also save a bit of my hard earned dollars

    Quote Originally Posted by Reno
    hi mate and welcome

    a few people on ozrenaultsport.com have 17" rims on their clios. i believe if you get a 205/40 profile you shouldn't have any rubbing. with a 215 tyre you will rub at the fron in particular on full lock.

    handling and ride quality is different i am led to believe.

    16" rims are the ultimate compromise with ride comfort/handling

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! biologist's Avatar
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    Essentially when you move to lower profile tyres and bigger rims you loose
    some unsprung weight, a good thing. The bigger rims mean less weight per
    corner for the suspension to deal with, ie a firmer ride, and the lower
    profile tyres usually result in a noisier/harsher ride but better feedback and
    steering response. Of course hard core drivers wouldn't let a little noise
    or a few jiggles bother them...

    Swings and roundabouts, hence Reno's comment on the ultimate
    compromise being 16's....

    The degree of change which will also vary depending on the tyres you have
    now and the new tyres you choose.

    If you have the chance try and get a drive of a Clio with bigger wheels
    and tyres and see for yourself.

    Cheers,
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  6. #6
    Tadpole
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    Thank Biologist,

    I've also joined the ozrenaultsport.com for further feed back and will seriously consider the changeover.



    Quote Originally Posted by biologist
    Essentially when you move to lower profile tyres and bigger rims you loose
    some unsprung weight, a good thing. The bigger rims mean less weight per
    corner for the suspension to deal with, ie a firmer ride, and the lower
    profile tyres usually result in a noisier/harsher ride but better feedback and
    steering response. Of course hard core drivers wouldn't let a little noise
    or a few jiggles bother them...

    Swings and roundabouts, hence Reno's comment on the ultimate
    compromise being 16's....

    The degree of change which will also vary depending on the tyres you have
    now and the new tyres you choose.

    If you have the chance try and get a drive of a Clio with bigger wheels
    and tyres and see for yourself.

    Cheers,

  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger! biologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gates
    Thank Biologist,

    I've also joined the ozrenaultsport.com for further feed back and will seriously consider the changeover.

    Good oh,
    Check these threads also
    Oz Renault Sport Forum Index Clio Chat! Post a pic of your Clio thread
    pics of cars with differeing wheels and some talk on their merits
    Oz Renault Sport Forum Index Technical Need new wheels
    Oz Renault Sport Forum Index Technical Tyres and wheels
    and there are more, enjoy!

    cheers,
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  8. #8
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    i run 17's, though they're a heavier set, 15.8->17.4 (with tyre)
    NOTHING beats the stock setup though...!

    You'll get some tramlining, turn in will be sharper with less sidewall flex too....
    ....Car feels a lot lighter on the 15's

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by biologist
    Essentially when you move to lower profile tyres and bigger rims you loose
    some unsprung weight, a good thing. The bigger rims mean less weight......
    Cheers,

    Is this a fact or an assumption. If wheel and tyre manufacturers advertised weight of their product, it would be an easy comparison,but have you taken identical rolling stock and changed size and weighed the difference?
    My fuego's OE rims and tyres(13/70) weigh in at 12kg, and the alloys on the car now(15/50) weigh in at 18 Kg.I know I'm comparing different stock, but my assumption was that the new 15 inch set up would be lighter,not 50% heavier.I'd love to see some data where, with the same rolling diameter, different profile tyres and wheel combinations were weighed.
    Jo

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi
    Is this a fact or an assumption. If wheel and tyre manufacturers advertised weight of their product, it would be an easy comparison,but have you taken identical rolling stock and changed size and weighed the difference?
    My fuego's OE rims and tyres(13/70) weigh in at 12kg, and the alloys on the car now(15/50) weigh in at 18 Kg.I know I'm comparing different stock, but my assumption was that the new 15 inch set up would be lighter,not 50% heavier.I'd love to see some data where, with the same rolling diameter, different profile tyres and wheel combinations were weighed.
    Jo
    I'd kinda agree with you, JP. Larger rim in the same wheel type means more metal and more tyre to go onto it. Different brands and models will weigh different, sure, but can't see how a bigger wheel/tyre package of the same brand is gonna weigh less???

  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger! biologist's Avatar
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    I was generalising, hence the word "essentially".
    If I ever moved up a rim size I would definately ensure
    the rim was lighter than the rim I use now, or certainly
    weighed no more.

    Using lower profile tyres means less sidewall and hopefully
    if your using a performance tyre then less weight also.
    Of course if you go for a rudely wider tyre then you may
    not achieve any weight losses but hopefully no extra weight.

    There really isn't much to be gained if you end up with
    a heavier package on each corner as it will effect the
    suspension performance far more than adding a
    few kilos in the boot. Unsprung weight is what you
    should be aiming to reduce when choosing rims and
    tyres ask any race driver and they'll confirm that.

    If your not worried about saving weight on parts that
    rotate, accelerate and deccelarate, vibrate up and
    down, pull you round corners and generally keep you
    from becoming a part of the scenery then you'd be probably
    not be reading this thread eh?

    Cheers,
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  12. #12
    Tadpole
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    Icon12 Factory Standard Wheel Weight

    If we take into account the overall weight of a factory 15" wheel + the Michelin tyres (04 spec) what would the weight be and should we keep it to this config?
    Why do touring cars run bigger wheels with a wider track and low profile tyre?

    Essentially, the cars have had suspension work done to them to give optimum handling; do you think that applying the same rule should work better on a road car?


    Quote Originally Posted by biologist
    I was generalising, hence the word "essentially".
    If I ever moved up a rim size I would definately ensure
    the rim was lighter than the rim I use now, or certainly
    weighed no more.

    Using lower profile tyres means less sidewall and hopefully
    if your using a performance tyre then less weight also.
    Of course if you go for a rudely wider tyre then you may
    not achieve any weight losses but hopefully no extra weight.

    There really isn't much to be gained if you end up with
    a heavier package on each corner as it will effect the
    suspension performance far more than adding a
    few kilos in the boot. Unsprung weight is what you
    should be aiming to reduce when choosing rims and
    tyres ask any race driver and they'll confirm that.

    If your not worried about saving weight on parts that
    rotate, accelerate and deccelarate, vibrate up and
    down, pull you round corners and generally keep you
    from becoming a part of the scenery then you'd be probably
    not be reading this thread eh?

    Cheers,

  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! biologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gates
    If we take into account the overall weight of a factory 15" wheel + the Michelin tyres (04 spec) what would the weight be and should we keep it to this config?
    I've never weighed the rim tyre combo on my car so I couldn't comment
    other than to say that I'd try not to use a heavier combo on a car, especially
    one as well balanced as an RSClio. I do have an aftermarket rim and tyre
    in the back of my Clio that is my spare (no spare with the 182's )
    but I bought the same rim size spec in a lightweight race wheel and a Michelin
    tyre of the same aspect and size (Pilot Preceda). If I get a chance this
    weekend I'll weight this combo against the standard one.

    Quote Originally Posted by gates
    Why do touring cars run bigger wheels with a wider track and low profile tyre?
    For racing, bigger wheels and lower aspect tyres means superior handling
    and braking but comes at a cost with quite harsh feedback and a lot of
    effort required to turn in. Most race cars use powersteering these days
    because of the effort required. As to weight, slicks weigh almost nothing
    compared to a road tyre of the same width, if you could get one
    The rims are also very, very light not really designed for everyday work.
    See how easily they break them while racing....

    Quote Originally Posted by gates
    Essentially, the cars have had suspension work done to them to give optimum handling; do you think that applying the same rule should work better on a road car?
    Sure, any improvement in the rim/tyre combo should be matched with the
    appropriate suspension changes to maximise the benefits of the new boots


    Cheers,
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  14. #14
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=biologist]I was generalising, hence the word "essentially".
    If I ever moved up a rim size I would definately ensure
    the rim was lighter than the rim I use now, or certainly
    weighed no more.

    Using lower profile tyres means less sidewall and hopefully
    if your using a performance tyre then less weight also.
    Of course if you go for a rudely wider tyre then you may
    not achieve any weight losses but hopefully no extra weight.

    Mr Biologist
    I think you are comparing aples to oranges. My understanding of the low profile tyre is that you need more steel in the sidewall to handle the extra stress that less sidewall has to deal with, hence more weight.Bigger wheel =more metal= more weight. Until Someone can show me the data to the contrary,I would guess that bigger wheel/lower profile tyre= extra weight= less performance.
    As a point of interest,I played at the opening of the new caltex at neutral bay,and they had a red bull F1 car and a super V8 on display.It was interesting to note that the F1 car had 13 inch wheels and more profile than a land rover,and the super V8 looked like You could drive up gutters and still not damage the rim.Why are both these ultra hi-performance cars running such high profile tyres?????? I'll be guessing that it keeps the weight down and performs better than some of the crazy profile sizes I see on plenty of streat cars.
    Jo
    PS If anyone knows where I could find some data on wheel AND Tyre weights, please let me know.I'm keen to know the FACTS,unbiased by fashion or sales pitch.

  15. #15
    Fellow Frogger! biologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi
    ...It was interesting to note that the F1 car had 13 inch wheels and more profile than a land rover,and the super V8 looked like You could drive up gutters and still not damage the rim.Why are both these ultra hi-performance cars running such high profile tyres??????

    Jo
    PS If anyone knows where I could find some data on wheel AND Tyre weights, please let me know.I'm keen to know the FACTS,unbiased by fashion or sales pitch.
    A very good reason Jo, its called torque. An F1 car without such deep tyres
    will tear the rim around inside the tyre without the sidewall to take up the
    slack. If you don't believe me then you probably wouldn't believe that some
    very strong track cyclists and roadies can spin the rim inside their clincher
    tyres, does nothing for the inner tube and valve...

    I agree that its apples and oranges when comparing street tyres and rims
    to full on race tyres and rims. Grab some scales and go measure them
    yourself, a decent tyre shop probably wouldn't mind

    cheers,
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  16. #16
    Tadpole
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    If you can, er, "weight" until Tuesday I'll measure my (cough) original 16" spare with it's unused Michy and we can compare it's weight to a 15"er. Should really use the same scales to be accurate, tho'. Anyone with an unused 15"er passing through Braeside (Vic) on Tuesday, we can do a comparison.

    Phil

  17. #17
    Tadpole
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    Default Wheel weights and tyres.

    Hi Jo,

    As I've been posing the question wether to upgrade to 17" rims and tyres or not, I've spoken to a few suppliers and these are two responses I had regarding wheel weights:

    AMG Edgecliffe-BBS WHEELS 17" 8kgs/racing wheel 4kgs
    Speedy wheels - 17" wheels 10kgs approx.

    Waiting on the weight of a 205/40/17 tyre.

    Hope this helps.




    [QUOTE=jo proffi]
    Quote Originally Posted by biologist
    I was generalising, hence the word "essentially".
    If I ever moved up a rim size I would definately ensure
    the rim was lighter than the rim I use now, or certainly
    weighed no more.

    Using lower profile tyres means less sidewall and hopefully
    if your using a performance tyre then less weight also.
    Of course if you go for a rudely wider tyre then you may
    not achieve any weight losses but hopefully no extra weight.

    Mr Biologist
    I think you are comparing aples to oranges. My understanding of the low profile tyre is that you need more steel in the sidewall to handle the extra stress that less sidewall has to deal with, hence more weight.Bigger wheel =more metal= more weight. Until Someone can show me the data to the contrary,I would guess that bigger wheel/lower profile tyre= extra weight= less performance.
    As a point of interest,I played at the opening of the new caltex at neutral bay,and they had a red bull F1 car and a super V8 on display.It was interesting to note that the F1 car had 13 inch wheels and more profile than a land rover,and the super V8 looked like You could drive up gutters and still not damage the rim.Why are both these ultra hi-performance cars running such high profile tyres?????? I'll be guessing that it keeps the weight down and performs better than some of the crazy profile sizes I see on plenty of streat cars.
    Jo
    PS If anyone knows where I could find some data on wheel AND Tyre weights, please let me know.I'm keen to know the FACTS,unbiased by fashion or sales pitch.

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts tekkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by biologist
    I agree that its apples and oranges when comparing street tyres and rims
    to full on race tyres and rims. Grab some scales and go measure them
    yourself, a decent tyre shop probably wouldn't mind

    cheers,
    13 inch vs 14 inch rims
    both 5.5 inch wide
    both running 185/60 profile semi slick tyres

    14inch = 16kg
    13inch = 14kg

    if you get a chance to pick up the ALLOY 19 inch rim tyre combo do it for the fun of it. Just watch your back, use the knees....
    AS JP said, lower profile tyres use much more material in the sidewalls making them comperatively as heavy as the full profile smaller tyres. Larger rims weigh much more.
    .
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  19. #19
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=biologist]A very good reason Jo, its called torque. An F1 car without such deep tyres
    will tear the rim around inside the tyre without the sidewall to take up the
    slack. If you don't believe me .......



    I believe you. I've seen photo's of the way drag cars deform their sidewalls with massive torque,but still get grip.And as a kid was continually re-setting the innertube of my BMX bike after things slipped around.
    With the fuego as my bench mark,I've never considered the concept of spinning my wheeels inside the tyres.
    So.... My burning question is who gets around the tight twisty track quicker(in a clio or pug,not a F1),the smaller ,high profile setup or the larger low profile combo?????
    I think I already know whose ride is going to be most comfy around town and who is going to have less accidental sidewall damage.
    Jo

  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger! biologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi
    ...I've seen photo's of the way drag cars deform
    their sidewalls with massive torque,but still get grip.. Jo
    That is cool isn't it, the sidewall ripples as those enormous tyres twist...

    I weighed my two rim/tyre combos last night, both are 16 x 7" with
    Michelin 205/45 tyres Pilots on the standard rim and Preceda on the
    spare rim. See pics.

    Not suprisingly the much less meaty spare wheel is a whole 2Kg lighter!
    16.2 Kg for the spare and 18.2 Kg for the OEM wheel. What this does
    show is that the OEM rim is pretty darn heavy, at least 2kg heavier!

    Note Tekkie's 14" wheel weighed close to the same weight as my spare,
    which is 2" bigger.... I reckon with a lighter tyre you might get the combo
    down to the same weight as tekkie's 14" combo. Not bad eh?

    After years of weighing bits on my race bikes and looking for the strongest &
    lightest stuff in aluminium, carbon fibre and titanium I'm a bit pedantic
    about getting the stongest but light gear, rather than just the lightest,
    which usually just breaks....

    So its possible eh? go up two inches in size and have a wheel that weighs
    close to the OEM, and for just one inch up it should be even easier to get
    a lighter combo.

    Cheers,
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Wheel/tyre Upgrade Rcs 172-oem.jpg   Wheel/tyre Upgrade Rcs 172-spare-.jpg  
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  21. #21
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    FWIW, don't forget that the 'profile' or aspect ratio, is the percentage of the height v width. In a Formula 1 car, the tyres are much wider than a street car. A few years ago when tyres were slightly wider, they were running the equivalent of 50 aspect ratio, from memory, which is on a par with reasonably low profile road rubber.

    They also have about 15-25mm suspension travel, the rest of the suspension compliance being in the tyre.

    Stuey


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    They also have about 15-25mm suspension travel, the rest of the suspension compliance being in the tyre.

    Stuey[/QUOTE]
    Regarding the Red Bull car,I was having a good look at the front end, and the dude running the show actually let me through the hording to touch the car.I was getting confused with how the front end worked, so he pulled of the carbon fibre covers to show me the guts of the steering.This car has no suspension travel,except for the flexing of the carbon fibre struts which hold the steering gear in place. I can understand why Marc Webber complaned of the bumps on the sydney harbour bridge after his display crossing.
    Jo

  23. #23
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    I know this is an old thread, but I thought I might add something I read about a while ago.

    F1 teams actually increased their tyre profiles a few years ago because they did a whole heap of studies and came to the conclusion that 50-60 series tyres provided optimum handling and grip.

    I'm not sure how this relates to road cars, but its interesting that you do need some meat in the sidewalls for handling. I don't think the study considered wheel and tyre weights, I think it was purely about the physics related to tyre profile size.
    2005 RENAULTsport Clio 182 Cup F1


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