16TS cooling problem
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  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    Default 16TS cooling problem

    I have recently reregistered my 16TS 1972 1151 after 6 months in the carport and the it began to get hot on the fiirst drive.

    On inspection I found the coolant jar was full to the brim.
    This has not happened before and I am looking for advice.

    I am thinking,
    Do I start with the thermostat or do I look for an air leak in one of the hoses?

    Any suggestions??
    I just bought another 16TS 1976 model a few days ago to try to fix up.

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    Regards,

    Cheers

  2. #2
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    I hope it's not a head gasket failure that has pressurised the system, pushing the coolant out into the jar. Was the jar at the normal level before you started it? If so, it'd be worth starting the car with the cap off the jar and revving the engine, looking for bubbles coming up into the coolant in the jar. Remember not to leave it idling too long so it doesn't get too hot.

    It's also likely that sitting around has caused silty stuff to solidify in the bottom part of the radiator matrix. The system should be flushed at the bare minimum.

    I'm sure you'll get pleanty of other theories!

    Stuey


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  3. #3
    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    Default

    Unfortunately, it does seem to be a head gasket gone like Stuey said. Not a huge job. Hopefully the head is not warped.
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  4. #4
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    Default

    Could it be a seized thermostat? Change and bleed the system in the first place i reckon

  5. #5
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    Default Seized Thermostat

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy Division
    Could it be a seized thermostat? Change and bleed the system in the first place i reckon
    Thanks or your help. Does anyone have good diagram for bleeding the system?
    I have seem to remember a strange contraption hanging from the bonnet with hoses going to the rediator.

    The manual says to pour the coolant into the radiator with the bleed screws open, the heater on full and the carburettor bleed screws open until it comes through the bleed screws.
    Do you kno exaclty how to do this?

    I have a weber model 32DIR carbie. I can't seem to find the bleed screw on it.

    Thanks again,

    Kumunjayi

  6. #6
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    Default Head gasket.

    Quote Originally Posted by alan moore
    Unfortunately, it does seem to be a head gasket gone like Stuey said. Not a huge job. Hopefully the head is not warped.
    Thanks for the reply Alan. I hope the news is'nt that bad. I will test it for bubbles as reccommended. If there are bubbles does it definitely mean the head gasket?
    I will also clean and flush the system as well as reccommended by Stuey.

    Regards,

    Kumunjayi
    Last edited by kumunjayi; 19th April 2005 at 09:19 AM.

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    The bleed screw on the carby is associated with the auto choke, and is a brass bolt with a hole down the middle and I think an 11mm head. There is also a similar looking bleed nipple on the water pump.
    '56 Renault 4CV (16TS Power)
    '62 Renault Dauphine Gordini
    '82 Renault Fuego GTX
    '89 Renault Alpine GTA V6 Turbo
    '02 and '03 Renault Clios 1.4L
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan moore
    The bleed screw on the carby is associated with the auto choke, and is a brass bolt with a hole down the middle and I think an 11mm head. There is also a similar looking bleed nipple on the water pump.
    Thanks again Alan,

    I will have a look at it today. It has a manual choke but I should be able to work it out.

    Kumunjayi

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by kumunjayi
    I will test it for bubbles as reccommended. If there are bubbles does it definitely mean the head gasket?
    No, not definitely. If you have air in the system (say, if it isn't bled properly) you could still get air coming out into the jar. However, if you bleed the system and more than a little bit comes out, especially if it keeps doing it when you rev the engine, it could indicate that the water galleries are being pressurised via a dodgy head gasket.

    You can get away without that thing on the top of the radiator. Bleed it with the bleed screws, keep the rad topped up to the brim, then close it off. Over the next while, run the car up to temp. and keep squeezing the rad hose with both hands. Air will come out into the expansion bottle. This eventually gets rid of most of the air.

    Some people use a plastic bottle upside-down jammed in the radiator neck, filled with coolant. I've got a home-made bleeder for the R12 which is an old radiator cap with a hole in the top, and a 20mm thin walled steel pipe silver soldered to it, about 250mm long. I've found it's just as successful not using this contraption, though.

    Stuey


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  10. #10
    Cor
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    The best is to Clean the whole cooling system and put one bigger radiator in the TS.

    The Moste Ts Cars have that problem.
    I had one TS from 1970 and he didn't have his original motor, because that one became verry hot.
    In that one was Put a new motor in it and a Bigger Radiator from a TX.

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts Europa's Avatar
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    Simon would be able to verify, but I think the Aussie spec R16TS had a bigger radiator that the Euro spec...
    '05 Pearl Black Mégane 5-Door LXR(Daily Driver), '75 Trak Yellow R16TSA (Parts Car), '74 Midnight Blue R17TS (Rebuilding), '73 457 Blue R17TL (Parts Car), '72 Alpine White R16TL (Retired), '69 Sunburst Brown R16TS (Awaiting Rebuild), '68 "Appliance White" Europa (Stored)

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Europa
    Simon would be able to verify, but I think the Aussie spec R16TS had a bigger radiator that the Euro spec...
    In my experience, the 16TS is very easy to bleed. Fill it up of course, and put the radiator cap on.

    Fill up and then unfasten the overflow bottle, which is held on by two bolts that fasten the bent wire fastener in place, and hang the bottle up using a piece of string tied onto the bonnet catch, which has it about 400 mm or so higher than the radiator. The bottle has a rubber hose coming in from the bottom, so it pulls up easily.

    The key bleed point (with the heater turned on) is at the top of the firewall, passenger side, on a small rubber hose that pokes out with a knurled brass knob on the end. Open this (usually finger tight on my car!) and you may get quite a bit of air out. Then of course do the bleed screw on the water pump.

    I'd agree that this one has head gasket stamped on it though! Bad luck.

    The radiator on the Australian cars is quite adequate. The fans hardly ever come on, which says everything.

    Good luck

    JohnW

    (By the way, if the head gasket has failed, there might be a reason! These are pretty reliable. I'd be concerned about corrosion of the head, for example and wouldn't just slap it back together without a very careful check of everything you can think of. Is the thermostat jammed shut? Might boil and have head gasket undamaged as yet. Lots of related, bog standard overheating issues to check before pulling a 16TS head off.)

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Europa
    Simon would be able to verify, but I think the Aussie spec R16TS had a bigger radiator that the Euro spec...
    From what I've seen there doesn't seem to be any difference in radiator for the hot and cold climate 16TS, only the heater matrix on the extreme cold versions is different. The parts list also seems to indicate that the radiator is the same for all models.

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts Europa's Avatar
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    Must have been thinking about the R17, with the different radiator mount points - I guess for the R15TL motor..
    '05 Pearl Black Mégane 5-Door LXR(Daily Driver), '75 Trak Yellow R16TSA (Parts Car), '74 Midnight Blue R17TS (Rebuilding), '73 457 Blue R17TL (Parts Car), '72 Alpine White R16TL (Retired), '69 Sunburst Brown R16TS (Awaiting Rebuild), '68 "Appliance White" Europa (Stored)

  15. #15
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    Default Thanks to all for the info

    Thanks everyone for the great information. I will let you know how it goes.

    I checked the expansion bottle for bubbles and can't see any.
    I am hoping the thermostat is the culprit.

    Kumunjayi

  16. #16
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    Default Expansion bottle cap seal

    I take it that this is a pressurised system, (as the water heats and expands the air in the system/expansion bottle is compressed)

    The first thing I always recommend is checking if the expansion bottle seal is still o.k., if it leaks air out during the heating process the bottle will fill with coolant and the whole system will boil at a much lower temperature as the systyem is losing its pressurisation.

    Hoped it is this, as it is easy to fix with a new sealing gasket on the bottle

    Ken

  17. #17
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    Good thinking, Ken. Could even be the valve in the cap.


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  18. #18
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    Default Not the Thermostat

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuey
    Good thinking, Ken. Could even be the valve in the cap.
    Thanks again everyone.

    I checked the thermostat but no luck, it is fine.
    I cleaned and bled the system and it seems to be holding it's level in the expansion jar.

    I found out though that the fan does'nt come on when she heats up so that would explain it getting hot.

    There are some small bubbles in the jar now and a small amount of water in the tail pipe so I am expecting the worst. No oil slick in the jar as I would have expected though.

    I am off the see the renault specialist Kym Oliver at Oliver & Skinners tomorrow. I want to make sure I am doing things right and learn for next time.

    Will keep you informed.

    Kumunjayi

  19. #19
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kumunjayi
    Thanks again everyone.

    I checked the thermostat but no luck, it is fine.
    I cleaned and bled the system and it seems to be holding it's level in the expansion jar.

    I found out though that the fan does'nt come on when she heats up so that would explain it getting hot.

    There are some small bubbles in the jar now and a small amount of water in the tail pipe so I am expecting the worst. No oil slick in the jar as I would have expected though.

    I am off the see the renault specialist Kym Oliver at Oliver & Skinners tomorrow. I want to make sure I am doing things right and learn for next time.

    Will keep you informed.

    Kumunjayi
    Well, keep checking these things! Not everything points to a head gasket failure though.

    1. You don't have to get oil in the water with a blown gasket as it depends exactly where the gasket has failed.

    2. The water from the exhaust can be normal unless the entire exhaust system has heated up, as it is just condensation from the combustion process.

    However, if there are bubbles in the expansion chamber, and they just keep coming, then that is not so good! Taking it to a specialist is a good move, particularly if they have been around long enough.....

    Good luck

    JohnW

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW
    Well, keep checking these things! Not everything points to a head gasket failure though.

    1. You don't have to get oil in the water with a blown gasket as it depends exactly where the gasket has failed.

    2. The water from the exhaust can be normal unless the entire exhaust system has heated up, as it is just condensation from the combustion process.

    However, if there are bubbles in the expansion chamber, and they just keep coming, then that is not so good! Taking it to a specialist is a good move, particularly if they have been around long enough.....

    Good luck

    JohnW
    Thanks John,

    This guy Kim Oliver is one of the few left who seems to know a lot about them. Since Jim Bush and Biannci Bros retired they are getting thin on the ground here in Adelaide.

    Kumunjayi.

  21. #21
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kumunjayi
    Thanks John,

    This guy Kim Oliver is one of the few left who seems to know a lot about them. Since Jim Bush and Biannci Bros retired they are getting thin on the ground here in Adelaide.

    Kumunjayi.
    What's the world coming to!! I can't imagine Jim retiring. He rebuilt my R8 gearbox not 20 years back......

    I knew Bianchis had closed - end of an era. The other people who come to mind are Tony Good, who had a small specialist mechanical place near Glenelg or somewhere like that and possible Kent Town Auto Tune, a man called Hurle who's first name I'm embarassed to have forgotten. Simon would know of course....

    Are you in Club Automobile Francais?

    JohnW

  22. #22
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    Default bleeding your system

    when bleeding, the system bleed starts with the bleeder on the head adjacent to the water pump, with the rad full, bottle high, open that head bleeder , when thats flowing put bottle back, start, warm then bleed the heater and carbi, if the head bleeder isnt done youll have problems, regards, fisher

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