R12 Cooling System question
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  1. #1
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    Default R12 Cooling System question

    I've put an R12 engine into my R8, and the job is almost done. I'm not sure I have the cooling system right, though, and I'd appreciate some advice about the cooling system and to check that my hose connections are correct .

    On my (R12) water pump, the two heater-sized connections on the right go to the heater radiator, just like an R8/R10. The top and bottom radiator hoses are fine. There is an additional heater-hose sized connection, however, that points straight down, to where the generator on the R8 used to be. I don't know where it went on an R12, so I've blocked it off. Anyone know if this is right?

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    Also, the front shocks on the R8 are tired -- understandable, perhaps, at forty years of age. Any thoughts on new ones and where to get them? The car is for road use, not track. Also, my wheels are a fair bit heavier than standard and I'm hoping the new shocks can handle them without becoming too harsh.

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    Any chance of a piccy of the water pump and hose connections? It sounds like there may be an R12 water pump housing with an R8/10 water pump?

    Does one of the heater hoses connect with the actual water pump pulley casting? The water pump and pump housing (The pump housing, I call this bit the one where the top and bottom hoses connect to, the part with the pulley is the actual water pump, they are two separate parts) If so, this confirms it is likely an R8/10 pump, the 12 pump pulley casting does not have any hose connections. But the actual pump housing sounds like a 12 one having an outlet pointing down on the manifold side of the motor…….

    My thoughts would be to use the R8/10 waterpump and R8/10 pump housing on the R12 motor. That should make it easier to hook up the heater, or use the 12 pump and housing with one on the heater hoses going round the other side of the motor. Then again if you have blocked off the hose and the heater works fine, and there is no problem with the running of the motor, perhaps things are OK. But I’ve never heard it done that way before, but that is not saying your current setup won’t be OK :-)

    As for shockers, that should be an easy one. Caravelle Imports in Box Hill Melbourne should be able to supply new ones. Or seeing that you are in NSW, probably try Colliers Auto Services.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon
    Any chance of a piccy of the water pump and hose connections? It sounds like there may be an R12 water pump housing with an R8/10 water pump?

    Does one of the heater hoses connect with the actual water pump pulley casting? The water pump and pump housing (The pump housing, I call this bit the one where the top and bottom hoses connect to, the part with the pulley is the actual water pump, they are two separate parts) If so, this confirms it is likely an R8/10 pump, the 12 pump pulley casting does not have any hose connections. But the actual pump housing sounds like a 12 one having an outlet pointing down on the manifold side of the motor…….

    My thoughts would be to use the R8/10 waterpump and R8/10 pump housing on the R12 motor. That should make it easier to hook up the heater, or use the 12 pump and housing with one on the heater hoses going round the other side of the motor. Then again if you have blocked off the hose and the heater works fine, and there is no problem with the running of the motor, perhaps things are OK. But I’ve never heard it done that way before, but that is not saying your current setup won’t be OK :-)

    As for shockers, that should be an easy one. Caravelle Imports in Box Hill Melbourne should be able to supply new ones. Or seeing that you are in NSW, probably try Colliers Auto Services.
    I've tried to take a pic but in them, it's hard to see the bits that we're talking about. Will try again, and post tonite. Thanks for the advice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clive Atkinson
    I've tried to take a pic but in them, it's hard to see the bits that we're talking about. Will try again, and post tonite. Thanks for the advice.
    I haven't sent a pic before -- not sure of what size to use, but will give it a try. In the pic (assuming you get to see it), all you can see is a glimpse of the crimped-end copper tube behind/above the generator. Just beyond the visible bit of hose, it takes a sharp vertical turn straight up, behind the pump body where it can't be seen. This is my mystery connection.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails R12 Cooling System question-pid-007.jpg  

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    It certainly looks like a 12 pump housing. So the crimped copper ended hose just has an elbow that connects to the base of the water pump, wow, a nice potential air sac that would be difficult to bleed :-)

    Any chance of a pic of the other side of the pump? I just want to see where the other two heater hoses go on the other side, to confirm if it is a 10 pump on there, as I've just looked at the actual pumps and it would appear the 10 and 12 pump are interchangeable.

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    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Default R12 cooling system, questions?

    I've been gazing at your photo blow up trying to figure out the hose fitting.
    Would it have been for the heater hose set up on the original R12 ?

    By the way you have another little job in front of you. Has anyone yet pointed out that the Weber carb is fitted back to front for an R8/R10?
    The float bowl is to the rear.

    Do yourself another favour. Secure or replace the press in fuel inlet spout.
    They are wont to falling out causing fire.

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    Default Carb stuff

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildebeest
    I've been gazing at your photo blow up trying to figure out the hose fitting.
    Would it have been for the heater hose set up on the original R12 ?

    By the way you have another little job in front of you. Has anyone yet pointed out that the Weber carb is fitted back to front for an R8/R10?
    The float bowl is to the rear.

    Do yourself another favour. Secure or replace the press in fuel inlet spout.
    They are wont to falling out causing fire.
    Wildebeest is correct re the input tube, it has happened to me on another Weber carb fitted car.
    re the bowl at the back, theoretically correct to have the bowl at the back, however some years ago we experimented for no real reason with having the carb the other way, and could notice no difference, even on very steep off road hills. You may wish to try it if the job is difficult to transpose, usually linkages etc which are the harder bit. Usual symptoms I am told are over rich on steep uphills and acceleration. If this is the case you may choose to turn it round.

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    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Default R!@ Cooling System and Carb.

    Quote Originally Posted by kiwia110
    Wildebeest is correct re the input tube, it has happened to me on another Weber carb fitted car.
    re the bowl at the back, theoretically correct to have the bowl at the back, however some years ago we experimented for no real reason with having the carb the other way, and could notice no difference, even on very steep off road hills. You may wish to try it if the job is difficult to transpose, usually linkages etc which are the harder bit. Usual symptoms I am told are over rich on steep uphills and acceleration. If this is the case you may choose to turn it round.

    kiwia 110

    Re the fitting of the Weber carb, you say that it is theoretically correct to have the bowl at the back? "Au contraire".
    Weber literature has it that the carburettor float bowl should always be to the front or in the forward direction of the car. This would also apply to any type of downdraft carb.
    The theory or design of the above allows the float level to maintain fuel level to the main jet at its optimum for both acceleration, hill climbing etc.
    Your comment on richness on acceleration and steep hills with the carb fitted backwards are incorrect. Put simply the fuel level at the main jet would drop under these conditions.
    If you have found the carb to work OK we may have to turf theory out the window, the best place for it on some occasions.

    Anyway if Clive has a look at his original R8 set up he will get the picture re the float bowl position.
    Last edited by Wildebeest; 6th April 2005 at 09:42 AM. Reason: misunderstanding

  9. #9
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    I firmly fixed my fuel inlet pipe by removing it, cleaning it up with 1000 grit wet or dry, and Loctiting it into the carb body. It ended up very tight, no worries.

    Stuey


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

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    Thanks for your help, gentlemen. I tried to taje a better pic of the pipe that appears to descend vertically from the pump housing, but I can't because of the generator and radiator. Also, I can't remember where the pump housing came from -- all I know is that the R8 pump I had was too corroded to use, so I looked around for a pump in good condition, and that's what is on the car. Today, however, I was able to take a pic of an R12 cylinder head, which shows the connection in question -- it's the rubber hose at the bottom of the picture. But the setup on my car has two hoses on the right as well.

    Having made up a better throttle linkage than the one in my earlier pic, and with everything connected, I'll try the carby as it is, rather than go to the trouble of turning it 180 degrees. But I'll definitely secure the fuel inlet pipe, and thanks for the warning!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails R12 Cooling System question-pid009.jpg  

  11. #11
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    Clive, on the R12 the pipe at the bottom definitely goes to the heater.

    Stuey


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts REN TIN TIN's Avatar
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    Clive,

    The outlet on the bottom left of the picture goes to the heater, the outlet on the top right is also for the heater hose. The smaller outlet on the top left and goe, via a tee-piece bleed screw, to the carby base on the inlet manifold and back into into the inlet of the water pump pump.


    Ren
    "I cannot help but notice that there is no problem between us that cannot be solved by your departure. Mark Twain"

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    Thanks for your input, and I now know that the two pipes go to the heater on an R12. But as I have three such connections, you can see why I used the two right-hand ones and blanked off the lower one. I learned yesterday, though, that I may have a problem -- I'm not sure that water is circulating through the heater radiator. The heater core is new, the hoses are perfect (they are about 3m long on on R8) and I remember checking that the hot-water valve worked freely some months ago. When I filled and bled the cooling system and ran the motor till it was hot, the heater core didn't even get warm. SO, either the heater valve isn't working, or my connections to the water pump are not allowing the hot water to circulate. By the way, I did run the engine at medium revs for a while so the water pump would do its work properly. But still a cold heater core.

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    Could you send a pic of the motor from the other side? Where the heater hoses fit to the motor. That way it can be confirmed if there is a mismatch of parts. As before, it sounds like there is an R8/10 pump on an R12 housing, this may be causing the flow problems......

    Also was the bleed screw open on the heater core?

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    Clive, I'd guess that the correct two would need to be connected to the heater to ensure adequate flow. Logic would suggest those that correspond to where the R12 ones are, have the best suction/pressure. So, it looks to me like the bottom one you have blanked should be attached, not blanked. The others may only give minimal flow or even almost basic thermosiphoning (depending on what we find they do!!).

    You probably guessed all this, but anyway...

    Cheers

    Stuey


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

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    Clive

    My R10 has the R8/10 water pump setup on a 1.4.
    Denis's R8 has an R12 on a 1289cc.
    My R8 has the bog standard setup.

    We could probably setup a time on a weekend to see both the R12 engined cars side by side to nut out which way to go.

    regards
    Kevin.

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    Kevin, I think you have hit the nail on the head. You, and one or two others, have convinced me that I simply need a standard R8/R10 setup. I had one, but had to dith it because it was too corroded. What I have to do now is obtain a useable one.

    Today I attempted to find out what happens with my present arrangement i.e. the paired connections on the right going to the heater, like a standard R10, and the down-pointing one on the pump body blanked off. What happens, when the thermostst opens, is that a couple of feet of the upper heater hose gets warm, the lower does nothing, and no water circulates through the heater, which remains cold, whether the bleed valve is open or shut. Clearly, I need to employ the blanked-off connection in order to achieve circulation through the heater. This can't be done as the generator is in the way. Ergo, I need an R8/R10 setup. Thanks a lot for your interest and good advice, gentlemen.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clive Atkinson
    What I have to do now is obtain a useable one.

    Ergo, I need an R8/R10 setup.
    try Ken at Caravelle Imports (melbourne). New housings used to be available as well as new pumps. It's the sort of thing I would buy and replace with new just so you don't have to root around and change the pump etc if you try a secondhand one and it doesn't work!

    On Denis's car (my old car by the way, but I didn't do the water pump arrangement), from memory the blanked off pipe went straight up vertically
    Kevin.

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    When I did my son's 10/1.4 I simply ran the heater hose directly under the crank pulley and up to the pump. No other mod, was done and no problems.
    The alternator stays insitu and the wire that went to the regulator now goes to the alternator light terminal. Could not be simpler. Not a bad idea to "pad" the top heater hose from wear on the aternator. I put in a stainless piece.

  20. #20
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    I bought a non-OEM housing for my R12 pump from Caravelle about three months ago, so there's a fair chance they also have R8 ones.

    Stuey


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

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