R25 flywheel bolts
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts silverexec's Avatar
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    Default R25 flywheel bolts

    Hi guys, a quick question while I'm at work... As some of you may know I'm converting our R25 from an auto to a manual. Yesterday, I bolted the flywheel onto the crankshaft and was a bit sceptical towards the torque ratings given by the Haynes manual. It recommends 60N for the bolts, but after doing them up to that value using my torque wrench, the bolts felt as though they could have been done up a bit more. Is 60N enough?

    Also, I put some threadlock stuff on the bolts before putting them in, but after I'd lightly tightened all of them, I was called away for about 20 mins before I could return and torque them propely. Would this have affected the locking properties of the liquid in any way?

    Cheers,
    Richard

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    - Richard

    Now: 405 SRI D70 '93
    - 2.0L manual
    Earlier: 505 GTi Executive '85
    - hence "Silver Exec"...
    25 GTX '86
    - manual conversion

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts Europa's Avatar
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    Did you use new flywheel bolts? If so, they should already have had a smear of threadlocking compound on the thread.

    The torque setting from the Haynes manual is the same as specified in Renaults Mot J. manual.

    The torque setting for these bolts is higher (65-70) if you are fitting the driveplate rather than a flywheel. If you have reused your old bolts from the auto driveplate, chances are they will have stretched and won't tension properly.
    '05 Pearl Black Mégane 5-Door LXR(Daily Driver), '75 Trak Yellow R16TSA (Parts Car), '74 Midnight Blue R17TS (Rebuilding), '73 457 Blue R17TL (Parts Car), '72 Alpine White R16TL (Retired), '69 Sunburst Brown R16TS (Awaiting Rebuild), '68 "Appliance White" Europa (Stored)

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    The reason for the torque setting feeling lower than what you think it should, is that the threads are fine, and so give a greater amount of clamp for a given torque setting.
    '56 Renault 4CV (16TS Power)
    '62 Renault Dauphine Gordini
    '82 Renault Fuego GTX
    '89 Renault Alpine GTA V6 Turbo
    '02 and '03 Renault Clios 1.4L
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  4. #4
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Although it might be all right, I wouldn't trust the thread lock after 20 minutes... I'd clean them up, put some more on and do them up again.

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts silverexec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    Although it might be all right, I wouldn't trust the thread lock after 20 minutes... I'd clean them up, put some more on and do them up again.
    I was hoping I could get away with it - it was basically the only thing I got around to doing on the 25 the whole long weekend, and I didn't really want to do it again... But I'd rather have the peace of mind of knowing that I've done it properly so I guess I will have to do them again.

    How much threadlock are you supposed to use? I put a two thin lines of it down the thread of each bolt - should I be drenching them instead? By the way, I've used Permatex "Red" threadlock stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Europa
    If you have reused your old bolts from the auto driveplate, chances are they will have stretched and won't tension properly.
    Yeah, I reused my old ones, they seemed to still be in pretty good condition. I was told by a few people that it's OK to reuse them, does it make much difference?

    Cheers all.

    Richard
    - Richard

    Now: 405 SRI D70 '93
    - 2.0L manual
    Earlier: 505 GTi Executive '85
    - hence "Silver Exec"...
    25 GTX '86
    - manual conversion

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts Europa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverexec
    Yeah, I reused my old ones, they seemed to still be in pretty good condition. I was told by a few people that it's OK to reuse them, does it make much difference?
    The books always say replace them, never reuse. In your case, you will be using less tension than the original setting (by about 10NM) - hard to say - I guess in an ideal world, one would replace...
    '05 Pearl Black Mégane 5-Door LXR(Daily Driver), '75 Trak Yellow R16TSA (Parts Car), '74 Midnight Blue R17TS (Rebuilding), '73 457 Blue R17TL (Parts Car), '72 Alpine White R16TL (Retired), '69 Sunburst Brown R16TS (Awaiting Rebuild), '68 "Appliance White" Europa (Stored)

  7. #7
    farmerdave
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverexec
    I was hoping I could get away with it - it was basically the only thing I got around to doing on the 25 the whole long weekend, and I didn't really want to do it again... But I'd rather have the peace of mind of knowing that I've done it properly so I guess I will have to do them again.

    How much threadlock are you supposed to use? I put a two thin lines of it down the thread of each bolt - should I be drenching them instead? By the way, I've used Permatex "Red" threadlock stuff.


    Yeah, I reused my old ones, they seemed to still be in pretty good condition. I was told by a few people that it's OK to reuse them, does it make much difference?

    Cheers all.

    Richard
    My (simple) understanding is that the flexplate bolts are different (shorter)from flywheel bolts and shouldn't be used on a flywheel.
    In regards to the threadlock, if you screw the bolt in and unscrew it you will get an idea of how much you need you want to have a good film over the lower portion of the bolt- as original.

    Farmerdave

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    With the threadlock compound, 2 drops on bolts the size you are playing with would be fine. The most important part is that everything is clean and dry before the drops are applied. Clean with Contact Cleaner, thinners or similar product before assembly.
    '56 Renault 4CV (16TS Power)
    '62 Renault Dauphine Gordini
    '82 Renault Fuego GTX
    '89 Renault Alpine GTA V6 Turbo
    '02 and '03 Renault Clios 1.4L
    '13 Renault Megane RS265 Trophee+

  9. #9
    Tadpole
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    Default crank bolts

    Depends on if the bolt is in 'plastic' or 'elastic' phase.

    Realistically guys, all manufacturers do heaps of work to determine how much to torque up. Also, I personally have never known of anyone who has done exactly the same as silverexec and has had bolts fail. Come on, who has done the same as me? Replace the clutch, remove flywheel to have it machined, re-insert old bolts with loctite and do up to book specs!

    I feel you will have no problems!

  10. #10
    Simon's Avatar
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    FWIW

    MJ3 drive plate bolt part number 7700655880

    Manual flywheel bolt part number 7700612359 replaced by 7700647358

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts Europa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renault25
    I feel you will have no problems!
    Now you see that's easy to say isn't it. It so happens I feel the same way but one has to be careful on an open forum. I bought new torque convertor bolts when I rebuilt my V6, total cost for the 7 bolts came to less than $20 (parts sourced from Marchants)

    Also, now that Simon has discovered different part numbers for the bolts - well that could change things as well. I'd hate to say "don't worry about it" and find out that everything went pear shaped after the conversion!
    '05 Pearl Black Mégane 5-Door LXR(Daily Driver), '75 Trak Yellow R16TSA (Parts Car), '74 Midnight Blue R17TS (Rebuilding), '73 457 Blue R17TL (Parts Car), '72 Alpine White R16TL (Retired), '69 Sunburst Brown R16TS (Awaiting Rebuild), '68 "Appliance White" Europa (Stored)

  12. #12
    farmerdave
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renault25
    Depends on if the bolt is in 'plastic' or 'elastic' phase.

    Realistically guys, all manufacturers do heaps of work to determine how much to torque up. Also, I personally have never known of anyone who has done exactly the same as silverexec and has had bolts fail. Come on, who has done the same as me? Replace the clutch, remove flywheel to have it machined, re-insert old bolts with loctite and do up to book specs!

    I feel you will have no problems!
    If the wrong part is used, the point is moot as the bolt is being asked to do something it was never designed to do.
    It is pretty hard to stop a flywheel once it makes a bid for freedom

    Farmerdave
    Last edited by farmerdave; 1st April 2005 at 11:31 AM. Reason: typo

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    dont worry guys - I gave him the manual flywheel bolts, which are longer than the auto ones. Quite alright in my experience to reuse, if clean and locktited.
    I tried to drown my sorrows in alcohol, but the bastards learnt how to swim

  14. #14
    Tadpole
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    Default bolts

    Don't get me wrong here - there is a difference between re-using CORRECT LENGTH bolts and INCORRECT LENGTH bolts. My comment is about re-using bolts - not about "she'll be right about the length".

    Have known/spoken to many mechanics/garage owners who do the same. Do you intend to race and rev to 8000 rpm? if so yes get new high tensile - if not do whatever you feel comfortable with!

  15. #15
    farmerdave
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renault25
    Don't get me wrong here - there is a difference between re-using CORRECT LENGTH bolts and INCORRECT LENGTH bolts. My comment is about re-using bolts - not about "she'll be right about the length".

    Have known/spoken to many mechanics/garage owners who do the same. Do you intend to race and rev to 8000 rpm? if so yes get new high tensile - if not do whatever you feel comfortable with!

    It was not clear until confirmed by Haakon that flywheel bolts were supplied.
    A new set for the PRV is worth about NZD$25.

    Farmerdave

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Default R25 flywheel bolts.

    Slightly off track here. My experience with flywheel bolts was with a R 21.
    In the Volvo / Renault days we inherited a few "orphans" still under warranty. This Renault 21 was owned by the customer from hell. He had complained about a rear main oil leak from day one. The selling dealer had a ready made escape by palming the problem onto Volvo.
    Now this leak amounted to a mist of oil around the rear main. To the owner it was of Exon Valdez proportions.
    Anyway the engine came out, the rear main was refitted, the bearing cap sealed with a silicone product and at my insistence new flywheel bolts were supplied. Unfortunately the bolts were for a manual so they were slightly longer, only by 3 or 4 threads. This wasn't immediately obvious and after fitting the new bolts and commencing to torque down I found the engine wouldn't turn. The bolts being slightly longer had come up against the rear main housing.
    The correct bolts were ordered but in the meantime our stupid service manager told the customer what had occured! Now you or I would have said, oh that's ok. But not our "customer from hell". He had convinced himself that we might have damaged his engine. He carried on about this for days, it was so bad that he would contact me on my home number and quiz me about it, asking me to put my guarantee down on paper!
    As I only worked for the firm I rightly refused.

    The above episode was the first nail in the coffin for me to quit the trade.
    Mechanics aren't paid enough to put up with this sort of customer.

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts silverexec's Avatar
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    Sorry for the confusion - yes, Haakon had supplied me with the correct "manual" bolts, but I have to admit I'd originally re-used my old ones from the auto driveplate as I assumed they were the same.

    But it's all fixed up now, I took the bolts out (which weren't that hard to remove... ), cleaned things up, then put the correct bolts in after drenching them in threadlock compound first, and torqued them up straight away.

    Should all be good now. Thanks for all the help.

    Richard
    - Richard

    Now: 405 SRI D70 '93
    - 2.0L manual
    Earlier: 505 GTi Executive '85
    - hence "Silver Exec"...
    25 GTX '86
    - manual conversion

  18. #18
    pur-john, not pew-john! peujohn's Avatar
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    Hey Richard, good on you for taking on the task of converting the 25 from auto to manual. You've got more confidence/ability than me!
    John W

    1979 Peugeot 504 GTI 2.2 litre 5 speed - 72 kW at the wheels

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    Previous: 2005 407 HDI manual sedan, 1980 504 GL, 1990 405 Mi16, 1977 504 GL Special, 1984 505 SRD Turbo



  19. #19
    1000+ Posts silverexec's Avatar
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    Nah, I'm just more desperate and crazy...
    - Richard

    Now: 405 SRI D70 '93
    - 2.0L manual
    Earlier: 505 GTi Executive '85
    - hence "Silver Exec"...
    25 GTX '86
    - manual conversion

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