fuego EFI conversion.1. Fuel suply
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Default fuego EFI conversion.1. Fuel suply

    I've bought a R21 head to convert to EFI ,and am stuggling through the things that need modifying.Have borrowed a copy of the R21 factory service manuel and I've started reading the relevent sections on EFI .
    I'm not sure what to do about fuel lines,tank pickup,swill pot,pump/s etc.
    The guy who gave me the R25 pump said something about relays,power feeds from ignition etc but the info went out of my head as quick as it went in!
    Any info re; fuel supply would be greatly apreciated.
    Jo

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  2. #2
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    I would personally run a low pressure pump using the original fuel suply line feeding to a surge tank under bonnet somewhere.

    I would run the high pressure line from there to the fuel rail and have the return going back to the surge tank. This means that you don't have to run a seperate fuel line from the rear of the car and you have a fairly short run of high pressure hose.

    You will have to blank off the mechanical pump with a plate...

    I have seen many an EFI conversion done that way with no problems at all...

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    thanks Mr reno.That makes a few things clearer.
    When putting in a low pressure pump ,where would the best place to locate it be ?
    Does the high pressure pump stay constant in its operation??
    What device controls the pressure??
    Where is it in the scheme of things??
    Jo

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts Europa's Avatar
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    Hang 5 Jo, I'm just uploading the Renix injection manual for you, this will explain everything. Bedtime reading ;-)
    '05 Pearl Black Mégane 5-Door LXR(Daily Driver), '75 Trak Yellow R16TSA (Parts Car), '74 Midnight Blue R17TS (Rebuilding), '73 457 Blue R17TL (Parts Car), '72 Alpine White R16TL (Retired), '69 Sunburst Brown R16TS (Awaiting Rebuild), '68 "Appliance White" Europa (Stored)

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    thanks in advance,europa.
    My brain already hurts from reading the factory R21 manual.Wish I could get my hands on a fuego one also... so well written compared to the hanes book I have,and great illustrations too.
    Jo

  6. #6
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    I'm sure the manual will show you but the pressure is controlled by the fuel pressure regulator. It should be located at the end of the fuel rail and will have a vacuum line going into it...

    The high pressure pump should be on from the moment you turn the key to IGN.

    I would personally locate the filter surge tank and high pressure and low pressure pumps fairly close together (perhaps all on a rubber mounted subframe where the big air filter used to be)...

    I would try and have everything fuel related on the same side of the engine as the original fuel pump (passenger side) so you can utilise the existing fuel lines...

  7. #7
    Simon's Avatar
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    Sounds like a big operation! Did you get all the associated equipment with the head, engine computer etc, or are you going to use a proprietary computer?

    Also with the fuel pump, you would also do well to fit a cutoff hopefully it will never be needed, but you would want it to shut down the fuelpump in case of an accident, or a high pressure fuel line coming off.

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts Europa's Avatar
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    OK hop to the usual place, http://www.8gordini.com and grab the INJR manual (right click and save)
    '05 Pearl Black Mégane 5-Door LXR(Daily Driver), '75 Trak Yellow R16TSA (Parts Car), '74 Midnight Blue R17TS (Rebuilding), '73 457 Blue R17TL (Parts Car), '72 Alpine White R16TL (Retired), '69 Sunburst Brown R16TS (Awaiting Rebuild), '68 "Appliance White" Europa (Stored)

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts Europa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon
    Also with the fuel pump, you would also do well to fit a cutoff hopefully it will never be needed, but you would want it to shut down the fuelpump in case of an accident, or a high pressure fuel line coming off.
    For sure, you need a "tachymetric relay" - only supplies power to the pump when the starter is operating or the engine is running...
    '05 Pearl Black Mégane 5-Door LXR(Daily Driver), '75 Trak Yellow R16TSA (Parts Car), '74 Midnight Blue R17TS (Rebuilding), '73 457 Blue R17TL (Parts Car), '72 Alpine White R16TL (Retired), '69 Sunburst Brown R16TS (Awaiting Rebuild), '68 "Appliance White" Europa (Stored)

  10. #10
    Simon's Avatar
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    I'm just wondering what the aim of the conversion is, call me a wet blanket or whatever but just looking at the stats I don't see there being a real plus in a sort of el-cheapo desktop cost benefit analysis that I've just done.

    Ren 21 TXE
    Kerb weight 1170kg's
    2175cc motor with 9.2:1 compression
    79kW power, 170Nm of torque (91 octane ULP)
    Fuel consumption City cycle 12.1l/100km, Highway 8.5l/100km.

    Fuego
    Kerb weight 1060kg's
    1995cc motor with 8.6:1 compression
    77.5kW power, 158Nm of torque (likely 96 octane full fat leaded)
    Fuel consumption City cycle 12l/100km, Highway 7.5l/100km.

    From the above stats, just popping on the 21 head and sorting the injection doesn't seem like it will make a great deal of difference in either power or economy, especially if the Fuego has the original low compression pistons. IMHO certainly not a big enough difference if you have yet to buy the injection computer and associated sorting costs.

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts Europa's Avatar
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    I guess the big benefit might be avoiding the usual Fuego old carby probs. But of course, one would have to weigh that benefit up against a the time and effort that will be needed to install EFI - and the risk of it leaving you stranded due to a botched installation...

    Then again, if it's not a daily driver, and you have the time and patience to fit it - well, it might be kinda fun to see if it works OK :-)
    '05 Pearl Black Mégane 5-Door LXR(Daily Driver), '75 Trak Yellow R16TSA (Parts Car), '74 Midnight Blue R17TS (Rebuilding), '73 457 Blue R17TL (Parts Car), '72 Alpine White R16TL (Retired), '69 Sunburst Brown R16TS (Awaiting Rebuild), '68 "Appliance White" Europa (Stored)

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Come on guys, dont doom me before it happens.To end the speculation, the reason I am performing the swap is,as Europa guessed, is to piss off the carby(emmition) and all its woes. My fuel economy with carby could not be worse,so an improvement is expected!
    MY car is a daily driver and being a musician,have a work window untill about three pm every day. this keeps me from never finishing a job because I'll need the car that afternoon.Obviosly this install is going to take a few days, but buggering it up is not an option.
    Renaults are my hobby.When I'm on the gig, time's money, but when It comes to my fuego, time spent thinking/talking about improvements and actually performing them is not wasted in my book!
    In the last twelve hours I've absorbed so much information on EFI, and I'm buzzing with the information.Like a drug.(watch out pond dwellers)
    Simon, the aim of this swap is to have a level foundation in which to perform future mods, and to utilise some of the new toys coming out from the electronic gang(,apexi etc). There is no way I could pull off an after market ecu injection/ei mod, but this is a gentle way for the absorbing novice to start down that road.
    IF fuel economy is improved.great.Aim No 1
    achieved.
    Also I would expect a lesser amount of emmitions,and am even thinking about a cat, to bugger up the world a little less.
    JO

  13. #13
    farmerdave
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    Quote Originally Posted by Europa
    For sure, you need a "tachymetric relay" - only supplies power to the pump when the starter is operating or the engine is running...
    Yep, flog one off a K-jet Volvo. Its a green or black relay with 6 pins found under the dash on the passenger side, if you pop the top off it has a 555 timer IC on the circuit board.

    Farmerdave

  14. #14
    Tadpole
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    Icon12 Fuego EFI conversion

    Hi there all Fuego guys,

    Jo, if you need some specific info just fire away,I got 85 J7t or 2.2 with Bosch injection cat,US spec car.
    The thing is working like charm,no problems with starting,timing issues,mixture,max torgue@2500rpm.
    Second Fuego is 84 1.6 turbo injection cat by Bosch,also US spec.

    Now I'm in France, booth cars are here too.


    Al.

  15. #15
    Simon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi
    Come on guys, dont doom me before it happens.
    I wasn't trying to do that, I was just thinking that if it was only economy you were seeking, or extra power, then just slamming a head and stock injection onto the car would be unlikely to achieve a big difference. and it would probably be better and cheaper to ascertain the problem with the carby, then either overhaul it or replace it with another.

    But as the project also has future R&D in mind, it will probably be worth the effort.

    Actually, how about getting some figures on the car as it currently is, say a before and after session on a dyno to get the current power and CO readings and another test later on to see the change?

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Thanks every one for your replies'
    Simon,Log book is being filled right now(for tax) so heaps of 'before' data. I'll definatly book in two dyno sessions .I'm sure some members will be watching the resaults with interest .I want to install one of those apexi RSM ,and will try and fit it before second dyno run,to maximise my value on the dyno.
    Dont go far,Albert. will have heaps more
    questions as time advances.
    Jo

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts Europa's Avatar
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    Someone in Melbourne has done this conversion as well, you might want to try contacting Autoparis - they may know of it...
    '05 Pearl Black Mégane 5-Door LXR(Daily Driver), '75 Trak Yellow R16TSA (Parts Car), '74 Midnight Blue R17TS (Rebuilding), '73 457 Blue R17TL (Parts Car), '72 Alpine White R16TL (Retired), '69 Sunburst Brown R16TS (Awaiting Rebuild), '68 "Appliance White" Europa (Stored)

  18. #18
    Member GunnaWanna's Avatar
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    Dont have to ring autoparis, you'll get me, Yeah I have done this conversion
    para un auto de rapido fuego

  19. #19
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Megasquirt is your friend .... I suggest you do an internet search

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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    Yay ... No Slugomatics


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  20. #20
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    RE mega squirt, is there something wrong with the oe computer?
    Gunna wanna(great name ),did you do any mods to the head or did it just go staight on.Remember vaugly something about CR changing?
    Jo

  21. #21
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    The original computer will be optimised for the exact motor it was hooked to. If you install a megasquirt you will be able to tune the motor for performance/economy at your desire.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Grab the Fuel pump and Filter (with its neat bracket mounting setup) from your friends R25 and mount it up the back near the tank. It can use the existing lines - the fat one for supply and the thin one for return. Look at the Fuego circut diagram - I have a suspicion there is already an electric fuel pump supply wire in the Fuego loom that terminates under the boot mat near the rear left taillight, otherwise run a wire from the EFI loom - one of the wires on the big terminal block that sits on the computer case I showed you will be the pump supply wire.

    btw - fuel pump is the same as a VL Crummydore or a Camira...
    I tried to drown my sorrows in alcohol, but the bastards learnt how to swim

  23. #23
    Member GunnaWanna's Avatar
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    Huh use original lines lol, the originals are too small
    Upgrade your fuel lines, the sender line is a pea shooter compared to the 21 send line. Grab a 21 fuel pickup, it fits the fuego fuel tank and has the bigger lines. BTW u will have to chop off the pipe that has the fuel level sensor off the original fuego unit and tack it on to the 21 fuel pickup, make sure you measure it up so it sits at the same height so your fuel reading will be semi accurate
    para un auto de rapido fuego

  24. #24
    Member GunnaWanna's Avatar
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    By the way that "return line" to the fuel tank from the carby is no more than a vapour release. It is about a pinhead and a bit inner diametre. You'll have to change both.
    para un auto de rapido fuego

  25. #25
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    After reading,then re-reading this thread,There seems to be some contrasting opinions to how best fuel the new head.One thing that realy attracts me to Mistereno's sugestion of keeping the original lines, is that when or if I ever wanted to move on to the next Fuego, It will be an easy job to convert current car back to carby,without creating too much work for myself.Also seems like the cheapest option, and can be pre-fab'd. The thought of running high pressure through the original lines sends alarm bells ringing in my head. and as the tank looks like it has had a bodgy repair(epoxsy putty)am keen to not touch that part of the car.
    The question of the minute is,If I take the surge tank/pump at front option, how would I plumb it.
    I observed a thicker line going to the fuel pump, a vapour line going to the tank from the canister(or vice-verser) and a thinner line ,also from the pump.
    Jo

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