R16 engine into R10 help please
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts Pugnut403's Avatar
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    Default R16 engine into R10 help please

    A mate of mine has a R10 with a R12 1.4 in it but he is replacing it with a R16 motor. He intends to use the R10 gearbox.
    He has heard that you need an R17 bellhousing to do this swap. Is that true?

    Also, how difficult is it to fit the 16 gearbox to a 10?

    Will a Fuego gearbox bolt up to a 16 engine, as that should not be too hard to find and give 5 speeds. he does not have a huge budget, as he is a student who is also trying to restore a 403 at the same time.
    He does not have regular internet access so I said I would find out what I could for him.

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    Does anyone have a spare R17 bellhousing? Is it really neccessary?
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  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! Reno17's Avatar
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    What allot of people do is put the R16TS Internals into the R10 housing.

    Colliers in Syd apprentley make them.

    You can't use a Fuego box as all the gears will be backwards. the only real aftermarket Gbox you can use is either a R16 or R5 box. Where the Gbox sits infront of the motor.
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  3. #3
    1000+ Posts HONG KONG PUGGY's Avatar
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    I doubt the R17 bell-housing is the one you need.

    Don't use the standard R10 box with a 16 motor, the sun-wheels won't hold up to the torque.

    I think to fit the 16 engine, you'll need a 16 b/h. The clutch mecahnism on the 17 b/h would be all wrong I think.

    The R16 box won't fit, and the outputs are not right for the R10 driveshafts either.

    Ash is correct with the gearbox fix, the 16 internals are the tried and tested method. Colliers are the go.

    Why is he going to the R16 engine. A well sorted R12 1.4 is a good match for the R10. I've driven an R8 with a 1.4 that had only minor camshaft mods,and the dual throat d/draft weber carb and it was a lively car. If he fits new pistons/liners in the 1.4, reworked camshaft, some head work, good set of headers and possibly a single 45mm sidedraft carbie, he'd have a nice car.
    He wouldn't have to worry with all the headaches of new gearbox, bellhousing, and motor fitting with the R16 combination.
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  4. #4
    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    You can use a 15,16 or 17 bellhousing onto the 10 gearbox. The diff ratio is a little low but with a stock 16 motor you should be able see use full throttle in first OK. It is the axle torque that breaks the sun wheels.

    I had a hot 16 motor in an 8 , but broke 11 sunwheels in 5 years, and sheared 2 of the pins that hold the star wheels in place. It was fairly quick, running 14.6 Quarter Mile with a gentle start to save the hassle of breaking another gearbox.

    I had the record at Mt Cotton hillclimb for many years for under 1600 cc Improved Production, although I would now be blown away. The motor is now in my 4CV, coming in 180Kg lighter, and with the 16 internals fitted to the original 10 housing. In this case a 17 bellhousing was used as a 16 diff is slightly bigger than a 10 and there needs to be be the reliefs that are provided in the bellhousing for the crownwheel.

    A 16 gearbox to fit is a huge project, although I have seen a 16TX 5 Speed fitted to a 16 powered, roadgoing Dauphine G, with custom made upper and lower arms and just about everything else.

    Easier to stay with a warm 1.4, and still have heaps of fun.
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  5. #5
    1000+ Posts HONG KONG PUGGY's Avatar
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    Stands corrected, wasn't listening during bellhousing usage 101.
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    2001 Rx-4 Privilege
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    R18 GTS wagon x 2
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    "When you hit the tree between the headlights thats understeer. Oversteer is when you hit the tree between the Tail Lights" - Wayne Bell

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts Pugnut403's Avatar
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    Right, so warming up the 1.4 si teh best bet, but if it is still getting a 16 then the 16 bell will fit, but don't thrash it?

    Is it a feasible hom e job to rebuild the 16 internals into the 10 gearbox, or does it need to be done by a specialist?
    As for the crownwheel, can the relief be ground in a 16 bellhousing, or must it be a 17?
    Also, how hard are 17 bellhousings to get hold of?
    Pugs Rule!

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  7. #7
    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    The 16 bell housing may work with the 16 diff, with a little grinding. The diff is about 12 mm wider than a 10 one and the way the 16 diff is fitted is by having a large aluminium plate made to fit on the drivers side of the gearbox.

    The splines in the universal also have to be machined larger to accept the larger outputs, usually larger universals are also fitted, with the end of the axle being machined to accept the little rubber that pushes against the universal to hold it all into the diff. Most people don't have the eqipment to do this at home. I think Colliers will sell the uprated universals resplined for around $100 ea.

    Even though I have a warm 16 motor and modded gearbox in my 750, a warm 1.4 is easily as good as a stock 16, even though I think the 16 would make a little more torque. Making mounts, and all of the rest of the carry on is hardly worth the angst.
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  8. #8
    1000+ Posts Pugnut403's Avatar
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    He's an apprentice Machinist so I don't think access to equipment would be a problem. I will pass this info on to him when I see him next week.
    Thanks for all the help everybody
    Pugs Rule!

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  9. #9
    Member Alby's Avatar
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    If your mate decides to go ahead with the 16 engine, I have available a good 16ts 4 speed box and an 18gts bellhousing which would probably do the job. Both very cheap to a good home but would need to be shipped from Melbourne.
    Can reach me on 0414 892 222 if interested.

  10. #10
    Tadpole David Mc's Avatar
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    If you really want a good box that will also do the job I have a R5 Alpine (16tx) 5 speed it has very low k's on it and is sitting on my garage floor in Brisbane.

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts Pugnut403's Avatar
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    What price on the 5 speed?
    Pugs Rule!

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  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default Gordini/Alpine gearbox for 8/10

    Hi guys, not trying to make this hard, but there are MAJOR differences between the 5 box (known as an NG5) and those in the rear engine cars. I currently have both sitting alongside each other. The NG5 is made for front engine cars, has no fittings to carry the swing axles, but has splines for inner CV joints so you would have a major fabrication job for wishbone rear suspension. I had hoped to do this with my 5 Gordini into my A110 but it is a HUGE job. If you decide to proceed the best option would be to try to copy the very last A110 rear setup.

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts Europa's Avatar
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    Here's a few photos of how they make wishbone kits/NG transaxles in a Europa. Not very applicable, but if you are going the "engineering" route, it might give a few ideas...
    '05 Pearl Black Mégane 5-Door LXR(Daily Driver), '75 Trak Yellow R16TSA (Parts Car), '74 Midnight Blue R17TS (Rebuilding), '73 457 Blue R17TL (Parts Car), '72 Alpine White R16TL (Retired), '69 Sunburst Brown R16TS (Awaiting Rebuild), '68 "Appliance White" Europa (Stored)

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