16ts powered 12 hotting
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default 16ts powered 12 hotting

    calling on the combined knowledge of renault racers here.
    i have a 16ts powered 12 which needs a rebuild. i am putting 16tx pistons in it, and i know i have to machine the block to accept these. now the only other mods i want to do is to the head.

    as far as i know the 16ts head has 40mm IN and 36mm EX valves, though i may be wrong as this is off the top of my head. which valves can i fit to this head to give it better flow? i was told to use fuego inlet velves for the exhaust and not to worry about the inlets as it is still a road car.

    then there is the cam. i've been told that wades do a gordini cam that is a remake of the 125hp spec. does anyone know if there is one that will give me a bit more than this, but probably not the full 160hp kit?

    on top of this i have been told to put in a high power distributor. is the standard 16ts dizzy and ignition system not up to the task of twin webbers at high revs?

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    also, whilst not in the engine bay, has anyone fiiddled around with the suspension on the 12's? mine is a little saggy but i feell with retempered springs it will be a nice ride height, or am i better off tryiing to source aftermarket springs for it? and what about shocks? is there any performance based shocks out there that won't cost my right arm?

    sorry for the long thread, but i like to kill many birds (questions) with one stone (thread).

    cheers big ears

  2. #2
    Tadpole David Mc's Avatar
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    Gday sorry can't help with your questions but could you tell me what gearbox
    you have behind that motor?
    I knew someone who had a sixteen motor in a 12 and it won quite a few motor sport events but I forgot what gearbox he was using.
    David Mc

  3. #3
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3006882
    has anyone fiiddled around with the suspension on the 12's? mine is a little saggy but i feell with retempered springs it will be a nice ride height, or am i better off tryiing to source aftermarket springs for it? and what about shocks? is there any performance based shocks out there that won't cost my right arm? :
    About 5 years ago I had a drive of an R12 sedan fitted with R17 swaybars , both at the front and rear, and it had R12 wagon rear springs. It also had 185/60 13" tyres on dunlop alloy wheels. This car sat surprisingly flat whilst maintaining a good ride.

    It was powered by a 1.4 litre R12 engine built up by Colliers with a modified head, cam, and Lynx cross over manifold with a single 45mm DCOE Weber carby.

    It was a sweet car.

    Dave
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  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger!
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    i currently have a 15 box behind it, but it's not doing much running at the moment, hence the rebuild.

    i already have 17 sway bars and front brakes under it, but i am trying to line up a 17 disc brake rear end and a 17 5 spd box, also some 17 rear springs.


    no ideas on the shocks or the head??

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3006882
    i currently have a 15 box behind it, but it's not doing much running at the moment, hence the rebuild.

    i already have 17 sway bars and front brakes under it, but i am trying to line up a 17 disc brake rear end and a 17 5 spd box, also some 17 rear springs.


    no ideas on the shocks or the head??
    If you intend using the car for club motorsport, I would just bolt on a set of 12 wagon rear drums, as the hand brake is alot more effective than the disc brake rear end. This is probably quite important if you want to run it motorkhanas and the like, and it will mean you wont tear the rather weak handbrake out of the floor from having to yank the crap out of it....

    The fronts are the problem fade wise and you have already fitted 17 vented's on it. Don't get me wrong, I don't really like drums, but on an 800Kg R12, they are fine aslong as they are kept in reasonable adjustment....

    If you want the thing to turn in well, I would just get a set of R12 wagon springs and lop a link of it...

    It sounds rather brutal but will still ride quite well and the spring is still captive at full extension...

    BTW - I had twin rear sway bars on mine, and it turned in well and still wasn't to tail happy if you over cooked it into a corner....

  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger! Reno17's Avatar
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    G'day mate

    yea nice project you've got lined up, I've always wanted a stock looking 12 with a nice strong 16TS motor under the hood.

    I don't think you'll find a R17TS box as there real rare...nah sorry bull$hit rare. I know of a couple but they cost as much as what the cars worth. I've heard they can be quite fragile too. Might wanna look at a R18 box or Fuego, keep in mind they don't just bolt in, some modifing of the floor pan needs to be done and new mounts need to be made.

    With your suspension your probably best using R12 Wag Springs for the rear and get your front ones reset and lowered a couple of inches. I went all out on my R17 and fitted Coil overs on the front, they had to be made up, and there sweet (mind you they'd wanna be for the moneys)

    I also threw on my 40 DCOE Webers this week, just got it back from the tuners today and performs pretty good for what it is. just a R17lump with cam.
    I Don't have any dramas with my BOSH Dissy however I would like to get it converted to electronic. Guy said my Bosh dissy is a bit worn and isn't getting a even spark to all cyl.
    Once I get that sussed think I'll throw a MSD on it.

    Don't worry with the R17TS rear disc, I reckon the Drum setup work's just as good if not better.
    1967 1135 R8 Gordini
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  7. #7
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    i was going to fit a hydro hand brake to avoid stress on the cable and lever, so that gets around that problem, but i mainly wanted the discs on there for the occasional circuit day and hillclimb, also cause it's fairly close to a gordini replica. even has the fuel filler in the rear quarter panel!

    you reckon stock lowered springs in the front and lowered wagon springs in the rear?

    what about shocks? any recommendations there?

  8. #8
    Fellow Frogger! Ross's Avatar
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    Engine wise I am building a racing 16ts motor for the Dauphine at the moment so I have a couple of comments.
    Why would you go for 16tx pistons and liners??
    I think i'm right in saying that you will gain about 80cc in capacity but loose c/r.
    A lot of effort machining the block for little if any performance gain.

    Valves - common sense says you will always gain more from enlarging your inlet valves rather than enlarging exhaust valves. Up to 42.6mm inlets are available.

    I posted a thread a couple of months ago about a company in UK named Salv Sacco. They offer a kit which they claim is good for 152-157bhp. Consists of pistons, valves, valve springs guides and retainers and cam. All parts are available seperately.

    Obviously Meca parts have similar parts and I think there are suppliers in Aus.

    You need to be sure that you are going to acheive decent hp gain before you part with the cash.

    Ross

  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger!
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    this is why i posted this thread. to get advice from those who know.
    i was told previously that the 16tx pistons would keep a similar c/r, as this is still essentially a road car i did not want to have a too higher c/r.
    if what you say is true then i am better off replacing the pistons and liners with the original and concentrating on the head: valves, polish and cam.

  10. #10
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    Hey there,
    I am also gradually assembling a 1647cc motor for my R17. This is the 843 motor from a fuego, as I originally found it impossible to get any pistons and liners for the 1565cc motor that was in the r17TL as standard. From what I can gather the 807-10 motor had the 'big valve' head on it out of all the variations, it was also the higher compression ratio. I have wrecked several motors only to find that it had the lower comp slugs inside of it....

    As for head mods, I have had a std 1565cc (807-10) head reco'd and the guy who did it raced lotus cortinas and thought it was pretty good as std. I have also had a 1647cc (843) head reco'd and mildly ported and polished- the valve sizes favours the 807-10 head but there isn't a lot in it.

    To explain a bit more, my brother will be putting together the 1565cc motor in his 12, me the 1647cc in my r17. We have nearly all the parts(incl brand new piston/liner kits), just have to get an engine builder to put it together for something less than my right kidney!!

    A cam grind- I have had one done for the 1565cc donk, and can get the specs for you if you like, it was quoted as being a 'fast road cam'...

    Hope some of this helps.
    Cheers Ben

    ps I have lowered the 17 and put uprated swaybars etc on it too. also runs negative camber on the front....

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    If the head were the same, enlarging the motor to 1647cc, (79mm bore) and allowing for the advantage of the slightly raised 15TS style pistons (77mm) over the flat 18GTS, a gain of .25 CR would be with the larger motor. With these motors cam, compression and carbs are where the extra horses live, with smaller gains in the valves and ports. A 2 1/4" system is also recommended after where the 2 goes into 1 on a 15/17 exhaust.

    Like most things, how fast do you want to go, and how much money have you got? There was a long thread about these motors with a title Hot 16TS-Let's talk horsepower.
    Last edited by alan moore; 23rd August 2004 at 08:56 PM.
    '56 Renault 750 (16TS Power)
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  12. #12
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    got the carbs and axhaust already. i want to try to avoid a c/r that is too high to avoid avgas or similar. i've been quoted about $350 for the standard 1565cc piston kit, but i've found a cheap set of 1647cc pistons and liners (<$100), so i figured the cost of machining the block would come out about the same as standard pistons. that is unless it will lower the c/r, which i don't want to do as i like it just where it is.
    as far as the cam goes, i want it lumpy enough so i can "just" drive it in traffic and let it go on the open road/race track.

    does noone have suggestions for shocks?

  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! Reno17's Avatar
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    Shock wise

    I know Munroe are still available, I also know that Gabriel still make R12 front struts too, either one of thoes brands would be fine.

    Koni did make shocks for the R12, but they are N/L/A if you can find a set second hand, they would be the best bet, as they can be rebuilt.
    1967 1135 R8 Gordini
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  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Whoah!

    was that $350 Aus for a full piston and liner kit for the 1565cc motor, if so please post where you got them. It won't help me but last time I tried getting some it was more like rocking horse s..t and about the same price...

    As for suspension, I have replaced the std shocks with munroes which are adequate. My brother is getting some similar ones modified to be coil overs- costing about $400 I believe to weld a threaded sleeve to the shock body and a nut top and bottom to adjust the platform height- does help if you are in the car business though.... He just got sick of having to get the special spring compressor every time he wanted to take the springs out. I have seen O/E Konis for sale on the american E-bay from time to time, could be worth checking it out...

    Regards Ben

  15. #15
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    may have been slightly more than AU$350, but no more than $400. i think i was quoted similar prices from both Caravelle Imports and French Connection in Melbourne.

    there is a set of 16TX pistons and liners on ebay currently sitting on about US$20 with no bids. i was watching them with the intention of buying, but after this thread i'm reconsidering. just do a search for items available to australia and search for "gordini". i think it's got about 5 or 6 days to go.

    i put a post in another thread about some shocks i found in the uk athttp://www.needforspeed.co.uk
    they are AVO adjustables, and are available for most renault models including 12's.
    has anyone heard of these??

  16. #16
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    Last time I checked, Caravelle was offering Allinquant dampers for the R12 - from memory they were around $60 for per corner.

    Stuey

  17. #17
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    what are these shocks like? i assume they are not adjustable.

  18. #18
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    No, they are standard replacements. I'd expect the same performance or slightly better than original.

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