Rear Engined Renaults Rock
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! Ross's Avatar
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    Default Rear Engined Renaults Rock

    I competed in a hillclimb in the weekend with 49 other cars.

    The course was about 1.2km quite steep and windy and raining off and on all day.

    I ended up with 8th fastest time of the day, as you would expect 4 wheel drive rally cars filled the top 3 places.

    The Dauphine was the oldest car competing and one of the smallest capacity engines (1400cc). I was only one tenth of a second behind a late model MR2 2 litre turbo!!

    The point I am trying to make is what fantastic handling cars these rear engine Renaults are, especially in low grip situations like this hillclimb. Talking to people through the day all the front engined front wheel drive cars were struggling with wheel spin and loss of traction while I was just having a ball with the Dauphine .

    Makes you wonder why there are not more people racing Dauphines/R8/R10s in this type of event.

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    Howdy Ross. Top result; good one. I'd love to see your car in full flight.

    I know this isn't the main thing in a hillclimb, but have you any idea (even an estimate) what your Dauphine would do 0-100km/h in? Purely for interest's sake. That traction thing is a big issue isn't it? I've heard Porsches and even Skodas (well, pre-VW) are pretty good for that reason.

    Cheers

    Stuey

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! Ross's Avatar
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    We did a test one day with an accelerometer (supposed to be very accurate)
    With 2 people in the car 0-100km was 8.3 Not sure how much faster it would be with only one person but it would a few tenths I think.

    Traction is a huge issue, Ive done quite a few events lately where the surface has been slippery and all these high power cars just cant get the power down. What a waste.

    Your right about Porshes, Skodas, etc and yet so many rear engined cars, including Renaults got such a bad reputation back in the 60s for dangerous handling. I know they are oversteerers but the limits are so high it makes you wonder how people got into trouble with them I think poor tyres had a lot to do with it.

    So now all the manufacturers inflict boring front engined front wheel drive cars on us because they are "safer". At least Renault still make the Clio V6 to make life interesting.

    Ross

  4. #4
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    Renault need to sell the Clio V6 here. They always tell me its impossible for them to when I ask, but they could import less than 100 through SEVS like Mitsubishi did with the EVO lancers.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ross
    Your right about Porshes, Skodas, etc and yet so many rear engined cars, including Renaults got such a bad reputation back in the 60s for dangerous handling. I know they are oversteerers but the limits are so high it makes you wonder how people got into trouble with them I think poor tyres had a lot to do with it.

    I was talking with someone here who used to have an 8G 1134 when it was new, they confirmed your crappy tyre theory. Their car had the original French Dunlops which apparently had no grip, and led to some interesting handling traits on some of the Adelaide roads.

    But I do agree that any rear engined, particularly swing axled, car can be fun!


    Quote Originally Posted by lizardmech
    Renault need to sell the Clio V6 here. They always tell me its impossible for them to when I ask, but they could import less than 100 through SEVS like Mitsubishi did with the EVO lancers.
    I think they would like to, as they said they would seriously listen to any serious expression of interest at the Melbourne Motor Show launch back in 2001.

    Problem is that I think they would be seriously scared of being left with a lot of unsold $70K vehicles hanging around. A lot of people seem to say great where can we buy them, but never stump up with the cash when they become available. The Mitsi Evo VI being an example, apparently it took a long time to sell the cars here. Renault have a had a hard enough time trying to sell relatively "normal" Lagunas.

  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger! Ross's Avatar
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    I was expecting a barrage of replys after my slagging off at front wheel drive cars, but nothing from all those Clio RS owners.

    I guess they must agree

    Ross

  7. #7
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    Icon10

    au contraire - the RSC is well balanced to get good launches without loosing traction (unless you dumped the clutch in high revs - but hey, this is daily driving not a rally ok). The stock Michelins are good enough I think. I don't see the point of having your car in race trim when you can go past 60km/h most days unless you're on the track (without loosing your licence that is). I'm happier with a car that has good pick up with good handling that leaves you smiling. Not a NOS powered 0-100km/h in 2.8sec etc, where are you going to go with in for daily use - if u really need it, get a bike like this <a href="http://www.motorcycles.bmw.com.au/scripts/main.asp?PageID=10751&ModelID=3000029&ModelCategor yID=66">one</a>, which I'll be getting next year

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    Scene: Ross, imaginary fishing rod in hand, rapidly winding on the imaginary reel...

    Hey Ross, I forgot that other rear engined hillclimb classic, the Hillman Imp...

    Stuey

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    Fellow Frogger! Ross's Avatar
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    Not getting many bites

    Time to pack up and go home
    Ill take the Mi16 for a drive tonight and reacquaint myself with the joys of a good front wheel drive car.

    Ross

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    Icon14 Well done

    You can now understand why the 110 ALPINE's were such adominant force in ralling and still something not to tangle with on any road.
    There is still the mentality about rear engine cars
    The Hilman imp and the 110s it didnt matter much where the engine was as the gearbox weighed as much as the engine. so they were Just as effective as midengine cars.
    Another absolute classic car like that is the Ginetta G15 1/2 hilman 1/2 herald and looked like a Lotus Elan 998cc could bolw the doors of an E type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AU-YT
    Another absolute classic car like that is the Ginetta G15 1/2 hilman 1/2 herald and looked like a Lotus Elan 998cc could bolw the doors of an E type.
    I love the big and very selective statement...

    Ginetta G15: Max speed 115mph, 9 sec. 0-60.
    E-type 3.8 fhc: Max speed 151mph, 7 sec. 0-60.

    I suppose you're referring to hillclimb only; well, on some hillclimbs a stock Cooper S (a real one) could beat an E-Type. Obviously an E-Type isn't a hillclimb machine.

    Stuey

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    Hi Stuey
    Actaully I am referring to Track events the G15 had far better brakes and handelling than the Jags, that regularly ran out of breakes on a lap dash. Iteresting isnt it big engines doesnt always make fast cars.
    The G12 was also know to make jokes of Cobars on the circut for the same reason.
    Graeme


    Quote Originally Posted by Stuey
    I love the big and very selective statement...

    Ginetta G15: Max speed 115mph, 9 sec. 0-60.
    E-type 3.8 fhc: Max speed 151mph, 7 sec. 0-60.

    I suppose you're referring to hillclimb only; well, on some hillclimbs a stock Cooper S (a real one) could beat an E-Type. Obviously an E-Type isn't a hillclimb machine.

    Stuey

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    Fellow Frogger! Ross's Avatar
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    Graeme has confirmed my original point.

    Its not about how much bhp you have, or your 0-60 time, or your top speed.

    Put a group of different cars on a track or a hillclimb and it can be very suprising, especially in wet conditions, what comes out on top.

    There are so many factors that make a car fast:
    weight
    tyres
    grip
    balance
    brakes
    etc
    Yet so many people judge cars soley on bhp

    I totally agree about Imps and Ginettas. If I wasnt such a french car nut I could see myself getting into them.

    Ross

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    Fellow Frogger! G4ME's Avatar
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    Good result in the Dauphine. Can I borrow it for the Rob Roy Hill Climb In September? I'm entering my front wheel drive 17TS for its first event.
    I've got a feeling I'll be spending a fair bit of time sitting on the start line making lots of noise.
    Oh well Im sure it'll be great fun anyway and thats what I bought the car for.
    There is a law against doing more than 100kmh...there's no law on how fast you get to 100kmh!!!

  15. #15
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    OK Ross I'll bite
    1st time I went to Phillip Island one gut in our club had an Imp and another has a Suby RS Turbo
    The guy in the Imp was making a big deal about the fact that the RS was braking into turn 1 when he wasn't
    The RS was doing about 190 into turn 1 while the Imp was doing 140
    It's alot easier to get the power down when there is not enought to break the tyres loose

    The Clio is a bugger to get the power down off the line thou
    Road car :03 Monaco Blue RCS
    Which will replace the Datsun 180B SSS track car

  16. #16
    Fellow Frogger! Ross's Avatar
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    I think the term your looking for is

    "Couldnt pull the skin off a rice pudding"

    Is Phillip Island a fairly open type track?
    My local track, Pukekohe, is very open and to get a good time you need lots of hp. The Dauphine is all tapped out about half way down the back straight so needless to say I dont race there very often.

    I think the term Im looking for is "Horses for Courses"

    Ross

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ross
    Graeme has confirmed my original point.

    Its not about how much bhp you have, or your 0-60 time, or your top speed.

    Yet so many people judge cars soley on bhp

    I totally agree about Imps and Ginettas. If I wasnt such a french car nut I could see myself getting into them.

    Ross
    Yeah, I know, I was just commenting on the use of the term 'blow the doors off...' which to me suggests power and speed. It's not that I don't see the value of these cars in hillclimbs etc.

    Stuey

  18. #18
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    Default OK I agree

    Blow the doors of may seem the wrong statment but back to my original point.
    The amount of HP or PS or KW doesnt have a total bearing on how a car goes. I cite the current example of track day cars in the UK the fastest things out there have 1300 CC engines.
    Now the first thing you thought of was Turbo or rotary its neither is 1300 cc Bike powered cars called Radicals.
    www.radicalmotorsport.com
    These are serious road registerable in the UK, our pollies ( parrots that only repeat selective statetments) cannot get their tiny advisor brains around the idea of a bike engine a car althought some clubmans were allowed but no more.
    I fact the fastest accellerating car in the world on road tyres is a Tiger bassed clubman in the UK twin engine bike 1100 cc, one drives the frount wheels on the rear 0 to 100K in 2.68 seconds weight 540 KGs the average weight of the bike powered clubman type cars in the uk is 440 kgs
    www.tigerracing.com


    Graeme

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts Europa's Avatar
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    Power to weight - also explains how in 1968, a slightly modified R16TL motor (83hp) with a 4 speed box could shift a Lotus Europa from 0 to 60mph in 10.6 seconds. Brochure specs say the Europa weighs about 650kg (it's probably a bit heavier though)

    Quite a few people have discussed putting superbike motors into Europas, not sure if anyone has actually done it yet...
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  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger! AU-YT's Avatar
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    Yep thats right
    In actual fact a Europa with a R18 engine and TS head and 5 speed box will be a better proposition than a Ford Twin Cam engine and 5 speed box just by the shear weight factor.
    I also think the weight of a Europa will be a problem to start for bike engines.
    Graeme

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by AU-YT
    I also think the weight of a Europa will be a problem to start for bike engines.
    Graeme
    We built a 600cc bike engined open wheelr at Uni which weighed 400kg with the driver. It was a weapon!

    Assuming a bike engined Europa with driver weighs 700kg, then to get the same capacity to weight ratio, it would need a 1050cc bike engine. In other words, a 1300cc Suzuki Hyabusa engine in a Europa would go quite well indeed!

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  22. #22
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    Default Clutch is the next thing

    Yep Id say you are about on the nail.
    Biggest problem is the clutch they go through them about 3,000 ks.
    Other single issue, to do this like I mentioned it is bike engine and not a car engine and to do this the local guys had to go throught the full certification issue $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.
    The best Europa setup I have seen was a BANKS 62 Europa which sold in Adelade for around $30,000 Full space frame chassis new body 16 Valve OPEL Calibra engine 5 speed NG3 box.
    The Europa in original guise except for the rear trailing arms was a good thing.
    Graeme

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by AU-YT
    The Europa in original guise except for the rear trailing arms was a good thing.
    Graeme
    The trailing arms aren't such a problem per se (have you seen how long they are? huge) - but the idea of using the driveshaft as the upper wishbone link certainly caused a few headaches WRT engine/gearbox mounting - the compliance from normal rubber mounting meaning slight suspension angle changes on hard cornering. Having said that, for fun street driving, it's really neither here nor there, but if pushing it in a track racing scenario, then certainly the wishbone style rear suspension (ie. Banks or S1) makes things a bit tider.

    Most surprising thing about the original mounting IMO is that the Renault boxes are quite happy about having lateral suspension loadings passing through the casing - even though they weren't designed for that application they don't seem to have any long term fatigue issues, even when punished. They certainly build a good gearbox :-)
    '05 Pearl Black Mégane 5-Door LXR(Daily Driver), '75 Trak Yellow R16TSA (Parts Car), '74 Midnight Blue R17TS (Rebuilding), '73 457 Blue R17TL (Parts Car), '72 Alpine White R16TL (Retired), '69 Sunburst Brown R16TS (Awaiting Rebuild), '68 "Appliance White" Europa (Stored)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ross

    Is Phillip Island a fairly open type track?
    My local track, Pukekohe, is very open and to get a good time you need lots of hp. The Dauphine is all tapped out about half way down the back straight so needless to say I dont race there very often.

    I think the term Im looking for is "Horses for Courses"

    Ross
    PI is a reasonably fast flowing type circuit. Horses for course and play to your strengths.
    If all you have is a hammer, treat the world like a nail.

  25. #25
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    Most surprising thing about the original mounting IMO is that the Renault boxes are quite happy about having lateral suspension loadings passing through the casing - even though they weren't designed for that application they don't seem to have any long term fatigue issues, even when punished. They certainly build a good gearbox :-)

    Saving grace is the fact that the whole lot is rubber mounted. Unlike the De Tomasso Valellunga the engine is solid mounted must be a Buzz "Excuse the pun" to drive
    Have you considered the Banks lower control arm Mod that takes the load of the Drive shaft?
    If you want to convers Via email my direct
    ytau (at) bigpond.net.au
    Graeme
    Last edited by Stuey; 20th August 2004 at 01:00 AM. Reason: Change email to save spammers picking it up

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