Rear Engined Renaults Rock - Page 3
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  1. #51
    Fellow Frogger! Ross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graelin
    Where are these held in Cambridge?

    Great results and enjoy hearing about them.

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    I used to live in Cambridge and Karapiro. (with my first Dauphine)

    Many good fast roads around there, I ended up being in MOT and having motorcycles and V8 Holdens to drive on them there.

    Went back in 84 and the cops were very impressed with Renault 5 turbos the 5ltr Coomodores were being blown off by them.

    Graeme
    The road name is Hiwi Rd which is about 10 mins out of Cambridge, we use about 2kms of it. Very fast with some uphill and some downhill sections.

    I dont know if anyone else has experienced this but when I am hard braking on downhill sections the tail of the Dauphine gets very loose and it can be a struggle to keep in a straight line. I guess it is just the laws of physics with all that weight behind the rear axle. I have removed the rear brake limiter but not much improvement.

    Any thoughts??

    Ross

  2. #52
    Fellow Frogger! Covert's Avatar
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    Ross I think you are right about the "law of physics with all that weight behind the rear axle", if you have taken out the limiting valve and the car is still funny I suppose you have two things to contend with....

    1. the weight balance of the car
    2. braking system, bias valve?

    I am not so up on the rear engined renaults but when I was in france I saw a few dauphines and one had a fibreglass ass, guards engine hood etc, which looked like they were lightening the ass of the car?..... how is the weight balance on a daup, I have seen plenty a alpine hit walls because of the rear weight shifting and bang it starts to swing and your gone..... maybe it's one of the exciting characteristics of a rear engine renault???.

    And on the braking how about a bias value, I don't know if you have one, but that has to help you out..... In my 15 at phillip island on the back part of the track I'd go over this hump and the weight shift would make the rear limiting value go spastic, it would lock totally up with not very good results for me ;-) ...... with the limiter gone and the bias valve in it's like a changed car....

    Just ideas.... hey simon needs to answer this one.....

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Covert

    Just ideas.... hey simon needs to answer this one.....
    Nope, no real idea from my end. I just usually have an occasional problem with the LHF locking up from likely lack of weight under heavy braking.

    As a thought though I'm wondering if it is just a relatively "normal" occurrance. Given the weight transfer and likely changes in camber due to swing axles and more weight on one side with the driver (No, I have no idea of how much Ross weighs and I'm not saying he is too heavy!!). I'm just wondering if it is the rear wheels just walking over the road surface as the weight transfers to the front end of the car, with a weight differential from one side of the car to the other and all the weight at the rear of the car. Given that a stock Dauphine weighs around 700 odd kg's when the car is moving it wouldn't probably wouldn't take a lot to alter the balance of the car while it is under brakes.

  4. #54
    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    As the backend of the Dauphine rises under brakes, certainly the back wheels will go positive camber, but also you may be getting rear bump steer caused by a tow change as the suspension rises. I would suggest it is towing out in the rear in this case.

    What are the bushes in your rear triangulating arms like? Mine are made of solid Delron. ( like teflon) I set my rear wheels with a tow in of 3mm each side.

    Are you using steel limiting straps in the rear? This can cause a shock loading, and instability when the trunnions hit these unforgiving straps. Much better to use thick exhaust hanger material for this purpose.
    Last edited by alan moore; 6th October 2004 at 02:14 PM.
    '56 Renault 750 (16TS Power)
    '62 Renault Dauphine Gordini
    '89 Renault Alpine GTA V6 Turbo
    02 and 03 Renault Clios 1.4L
    '13 Renault Megane RS265 Trophee +

  5. #55
    Fellow Frogger! Ross's Avatar
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    Thanks Alan, thats valuable information.

    I am using standard bushes in the front end of the triangulating arms, probably very old and very dodgy by now, I will strip them out and replace with Nylatron.

    Last time I had the wheel alignment done I asked for 0 toe at the rear. Makes sense what you are saying about toe in. I will make that change as well.

    I use heavy conveyor belt webbing for the limiting straps, much like exhaust hanger material so that shouldnt be the problem.

    Simon, I thought you were a nice bloke but here you are making fun of my weight
    But seriously it doesnt seem to make any difference when I am on rallies with a co-driver on board (even though he weighs less than me).

    Ross

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ross
    Simon, I thought you were a nice bloke but here you are making fun of my weight
    But seriously it doesnt seem to make any difference when I am on rallies with a co-driver on board (even though he weighs less than me).
    I'm just warming up to when I can change my title from Fellow Frogger to All Round Bad Guy or Nasty Person! :-)

  7. #57
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    Hi Ross, latest issue of Mille Miles has an article relating to brakes and suspension on A110, which maybe translates to your braking question. The author of this reckons that movement at the front suspension makes the car squirm unde heavy braking, runs a sort of radius rod back from near the outer end of the bottom wishbone to the chassi, inner end almost in line with axis of the inner pivots, rose joints both ends, said to make huge improvement!
    Nearly time to watch bathurst, shame its only Ozzy big stuff!

  8. #58
    Fellow Frogger! Ross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiwia110
    Hi Ross, latest issue of Mille Miles has an article relating to brakes and suspension on A110, which maybe translates to your braking question. The author of this reckons that movement at the front suspension makes the car squirm unde heavy braking, runs a sort of radius rod back from near the outer end of the bottom wishbone to the chassi, inner end almost in line with axis of the inner pivots, rose joints both ends, said to make huge improvement!
    Nearly time to watch bathurst, shame its only Ozzy big stuff!
    Hi Rhys

    I hadnt heard of that magazine, I had a look at the web site, looks interesting.
    Is it only in French or can you get english versions??

    Concerning the front suspension struts, on the surface it seems like a complicated way to do a simple job. I have solid bushes in the bottom arms which should stop any movement.

    Ross

  9. #59
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Default Rear wheel alignment?

    Guys,
    Prove me wrong!
    If you can adjust wheel alignment on the swingarms of a R8 or R10 rear axle, then something drastic is wrong with your needlebearings. These tubes are pivoting 100% vertically (unless you tilt the g/box) and if they swing vertically the camber will change from neg to pos but nothing in a straight line.
    The eccentric hex nuts are only there to apply some tension on engine and g/box mounts to apply a little bit of steering so that the car don't run like a crab but with the needle bearings in a good condition there will be no alignment change
    Imagine the radius from the box to the wheels and think for yourself how much the sideshaft will have to be pulled forward to adjust the wheel alignment with 3 mm. My guess is about 20mm and if you have 20mm play then you have no needles in there.
    Any comments?
    Frans

  10. #60
    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    You are suggesting that those tiny rollers two feet from the wheel are capable of holding the alignment at 0? This is the standard Renault 4CV setup, and with good bearings and only 21Hp and feeble drums, the back wheels walk back and forward all over the place. Simply, leverage overcomes the bearings. If the bearings were 100mm across instead of 25mm, the system would possibly work without the radius arm, but with 145Hp, and reasonable brakes like mine has, it is doubtful.

    I admit to have not done the maths, but I would think the eccentric hex would be capable of changing the rear radius arm position by 20mm over its' full range. Certainly, I have not had trouble getting a toe in alignment setting, although as you say, it must cause a small misalignment of the trunnion bearings to do so.
    '56 Renault 750 (16TS Power)
    '62 Renault Dauphine Gordini
    '89 Renault Alpine GTA V6 Turbo
    02 and 03 Renault Clios 1.4L
    '13 Renault Megane RS265 Trophee +

  11. #61
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    Default Rear wheel alignment

    Hi guys, just a thought or / Surely, EVEN if the wheels were aligned at whatever in the state where the car is level that alignment is thrown out the window when the rocket (Ross' car is pretty quick!) accelerates and squats, and in the opposite direction when it dives under brakes?
    If you accept this to be the case, then what can you do about it? The check straps limit droop, so are you now relying on the weight of the rear of the car to prevent problems? I don't know, just asking!

  12. #62
    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    The radius arm pivot point is aligned with the trunnion bearings, and so as the wheels go through their motion, the camber changes but the toe does not, except if the radius arm bushes allow fore/ aft movement. This is why I have made the bushes out of a more stout material, instead of 40 year old rubber.
    '56 Renault 750 (16TS Power)
    '62 Renault Dauphine Gordini
    '89 Renault Alpine GTA V6 Turbo
    02 and 03 Renault Clios 1.4L
    '13 Renault Megane RS265 Trophee +

  13. #63
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Default Wheel alignment

    I think the reason for Ross's complaint ( rear end gets loose ) is because he is running a normal diff. When the rear is light due to heavy breaking one wheel can be lighter than the other and lock up momentarary which means the two wheels do not brake evenly. The wheel with the most grip will cause the tail to slide one way and that is the beginning of the sway.
    If it was a solid rear axle it might have been better because if the wheels lock up both will slide. That makes the grip slightly more even than when one wheel is still spinning and the other dragging. A wheel that is turning has more grip than one sliding.

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