CLIO automatics - are they OK?
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! 604 tragic's Avatar
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    Default CLIO automatics - are they OK?

    The wife saw a cute Clio auto yesterday & thought it looked cool.
    Do these Renault transmissions have a good/bad reputation?

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    I think she has a soft spot for Renaults as an R12 was her first car (also, I taught her to drive in it - but this is not recommended!)
    So many projects - so little time.

  2. #2
    Good Sport danielsydney's Avatar
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    I dont think they are borg warner transmissions but I have not heard of many major faults with them. Remember they are Renault particular so beware before buying-check service history though....

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    Daniel,

    Whatcha talking about?

    The gearbox is a shared Renault/Peugeot/Citroen unit. It was co-developed between the three car companies and Siemens. In Renault-speak it's called the DP0 (that's a zero). In PSA speak it's called the AL4.

    The gearbox is definately used in all 4 cylinder Peugeots, Citroens and Renaults. I'm not too sure about 6 cylinder engines, but if it's up to the torque figures that V6's put out, it would be.

    So, Daniel that means that the Clio box is nothing "special" - it's used in your car too

    If PUG307 sees this thread, he'll have more to add no doubt, but that's as much as I know. I haven't heard any horror stories about automatics in French cars yet, apart from people not liking the auto adapative shift system. Most people who whinge when they first buy the car seem to be very happy with it after they get used to it and see the benefits of an auto box which changes down gears as you slow down.

    Derek

  4. #4
    Simon's Avatar
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    Just for you Daniel, a pic of the auto trans....
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Good Sport danielsydney's Avatar
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    Oh thanks guys I was not sure really.I was told it was different to the others. Well thats really good news then. Is the 206 automatic the same in the C3??
    That picture is really cool. What a fantastic pice of technology.
    Derek whats happened to all your cars?Do u still have the 306?Is the C3 still going strong?
    Looks like we missed out on some great offers that citroen have currently....

  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger! 604 tragic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeKa
    Daniel,

    Whatcha talking about?

    The gearbox is a shared Renault/Peugeot/Citroen unit. It was co-developed between the three car companies and Siemens. In Renault-speak it's called the DP0 (that's a zero). In PSA speak it's called the AL4.

    The gearbox is definately used in all 4 cylinder Peugeots, Citroens and Renaults. I'm not too sure about 6 cylinder engines, but if it's up to the torque figures that V6's put out, it would be.

    Most people who whinge when they first buy the car seem to be very happy with it after they get used to it and see the benefits of an auto box which changes down gears as you slow down.

    Derek
    Thanks for the advice on the AL4 - I Googled it & found this interesting rave from UK. I wonder how long before smartarse computer geeks start reprogramming the controls?:

    Automatic gearboxes are finding favour all around the world, with about 44% of cars worldwide using them. In Europe, according to Renault, this figure is 8% but expected to grow. In the US, 90% of cars are already so equipped and in Japan almost 80% of cars have an automatic transmission.

    Automatic 307s are equipped with the latest version of the AL 4 gearbox, which is also used in many other Peugeot models, including the N5 306, 206, 406 and 807. The AL4 was developed in conjunction with PSA partner Citroen, Siemens and Renault (DP0). PSA and Renault shared the development costs of 2.75 billion French francs (about 410 million USD) in 1997. It weighs 70kg, and can handle up to 330Nm of torque (210Nm on earlier versions). Hydraulic torque converter lock up is available on 2nd, 3rd and 4th gears. Transmission oil is cooled by a heat exchanger. The Gearbox ECU uses 40 channels, which sends and receives information from the engine ECU via the CAN network. Peugeot claims the fuel consumption increase with this gearbox over the manual equivalent is small - in the 307 1.6, there is only a 0.2l increase for every 100km driven on the city cycle (AS2877).

    In normal mode, the transmission is auto-adaptive, that is, it tries to shift according to your driving pattern. It considers the vehicle load, road gradient and surface, the speed of accelerator actuation and other factors such as gearbox oil temperature and engine temperature. The computer creates an identikit portrait of the driver within a minute, considering the speed of the car, the number of times and the speed at which the driver presses the accelerator (and its position). From this the computer categorieses the driver as being in an economical, sporting or medium category. These categories correspond with a set of gearshift rules which favour either economy, performance or a compromise between the two, which is determined from an average of values over the past few minutes. This can be temporarily changed if the accelerator is pressed rapidly - the ECU will select the next sportier program (ie. from ECO to MEDIUM or MEDIUM to SPORT) - upon release, the transmission resumes the earlier mode.

    Normal Mode Pattern Selection - Table

    Vehicle Driving Conditions

    (this is supposed to be a table)

    Driving Conditions Downhill Level Ground Average Ascent Steep Ascent
    ECO Pattern DESCENT Pattern ECO Pattern BRAKING Pattern 1 BRAKING Pattern 2
    MEDIUM Pattern DESCENT Pattern MEDIUM Pattern BRAKING Pattern 1 BRAKING Pattern 2
    SPORT Pattern SPORT Pattern SPORT Pattern SPORT Pattern BRAKING Pattern 2

    There are 6 'laws' from which the transmission can choose in auto-adaptive (normal) mode. ECO Pattern and BRAKING Pattern 1 are the most common modes used. Two additional modes can also be manually selected.

    Sports mode automatically limits the transmission to the two most dynamic/sporty/aggressive modes. In sports mode, the cars holds onto gears longer, will not shift into 4th gear until high speeds (ie. +100km/h) and shifts down eagerly to provide engine braking (both under brakes, and when slowing down without brakes). It is also slightly less eager to lock up the torque converter. Sports mode is very effective for sporty driving, more so than most other automatic transmissions, as the torque converter is locked up, and hence engine braking is also provided - which is noticeable under braking. The aggressiveness of downshifting under braking depends on factors such as the gradient and the amount of braking applied by the driver.

    In Snow mode the car starts off in second gear, so as to reduce the likelyhood of wheelspin. The transmission will have fewer gearchanges, will not kickdown unless below 15 km/h, and will force downshifts on application of braking. This is the only mode not selected by the auto-adaptive system.

    In addition to the aforementioned automatic modes, the AL 4 in the 307 is also equipped with a Porsche Tiptronic system (manual mode). The driver can manually change gears (without clutch), by pushing the gearstick forward to upshift, and to downshift by pulling back on the shift lever. The system will not allow any potentially hazardous shifts to take place - it will not allow a downshift if it will overrev the engine. Conversely, it will also upshift when engine revs are too high. In addition, when too high a gear is selected (eg. 4th gear at low speeds), the engine will either unlock the torque converter or downshift to prevent the engine from stalling. In total, the AL4 has 10 modes.

    In the interests of safety, theoretically the transmission will not upshift if the accelerator pedal is suddenly released. Peugeot claims it is sealed for life, requiring no fluid changes. However, the transmission has an oil wear counter, allowing 6000 hours of operating at oil temperatures below 95C (32,958 units of wear). Using Diag2000, a technician can determine whether the fluid requires changing.

    When the transmission is cold (<15C), the torque converter lock up plate is too hot or has a fault, the torque converter will remained unlocked to warm up the fluid to 15C. Upon reaching this, the gearbox heating pattern begins which helps to heat the engine and catalytic converter, reducing exhaust emissions (it certainly seems effective as the engine warms up very quickly, which means fast cabin heating). There is also a overheating protection pattern, which has maximum priority over other modes to cool down the transmission fluid - it begins operation at 120C, and ceases at 110C.

    The AL 4 can be quite a clever unit. I have found that it provides excellent fuel consumption, fuel consumption not much greater than the manual version. However, the acceleration in the automatic feels much more sluggish than the manual 1.6 and at times the logic is questionable.
    So many projects - so little time.

  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger! storms_of_fate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeKa
    Most people who whinge when they first buy the car seem to be very happy with it after they get used to it and see the benefits of an auto box which changes down gears as you slow down.

    Derek
    not following there, do you mean like the sceinic auto, which holds a gear longer than most auto boxes? And subsquently it changes down sooner than most autos so when you want to go again you'd have plenty power/torque in reserve?
    Karl
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by storms_of_fate
    not following there, do you mean like the sceinic auto, which holds a gear longer than most auto boxes? And subsquently it changes down sooner than most autos so when you want to go again you'd have plenty power/torque in reserve?
    The Scenic has the AL 4 or DP0 so yes, that's exactly what I mean
    Derek

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts Fordman's Avatar
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    Default DP0 auto characteristics

    Quote Originally Posted by 604 tragic
    In Snow mode the car starts off in second gear, so as to reduce the likelyhood of wheelspin. The transmission will have fewer gearchanges, will not kickdown unless below 15 km/h, and will force downshifts on application of braking. This is the only mode not selected by the auto-adaptive system.
    Thanks for that info on the DP0 - very interesting. For instance the handbook tells you that the "snow" button is for driving in snow but doesnt tell you what to expect - your article explains quite a bit.

    My first impression of the Scenic auto downshift was there was something wrong with it, but then I realised it was just different than other autos, and I now find the engine braking under deceleration to be very effective.
    The only fault I find with it (and reading between the lines on other articles it is a common concern) is that it seems to get a bit mixed up at low speeds. If you are driving at low throttle but start climbing a hill or even just accelerating away from a slow corner, it (sometimes) hangs on about 1500 rpm and doesnt go at all. If you put your foot down it then kicks down violently and revs too high - it's just not quite right.

  10. #10
    Good Sport danielsydney's Avatar
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    What about the Renault AD4 transmission how does it compare....?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 604 tragic
    Thanks for the advice on the AL4 - I Googled it & found this interesting rave from UK. I wonder how long before smartarse computer geeks start reprogramming the controls?:
    I knew that text was familiar, it's from Pug307's webpage at http://users.bigpond.net.au/skystar/peugeot307/ under "Technology"

    Maybe that's why Pug307 is in Europe now - so he can figure out how to reprogram the controls

    Derek

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts Fordman's Avatar
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    Default AD4 & DP0 autos

    Quote Originally Posted by danielsydney
    What about the Renault AD4 transmission how does it compare....?
    According to Haynes Megane/Scenic (1999 onwards) workshop manual - the AD4 was fitted up to about August 1999 then the DP0 was used from then onwards.

    Main difference is the DP0 has torque converter "lock-up" (ie, torque converter internal clutch locks up at cruise speeds which eliminates the "slip" of the auto trans - better fuel economy & lower rpm). From the diagrams it appears to be of completely different design to the AD4.

    The DP0 is "sealed for life" however the fluid can be changed if necessary but it is pretty complicated and they recommend a dealer to do it.

    The DP0 also has "shift-lock" for safety - this means the brake pedal has to be pressed to shift gear lever from "park" position.

  13. #13
    Sense Pug307's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeKa
    I knew that text was familiar, it's from Pug307's webpage at http://users.bigpond.net.au/skystar/peugeot307/ under "Technology"
    Ding

    Had a run in a 407 2.2 over the weekend

    Peugeot 307 XS 1.6
    Aussiefrogged in MEL, PER, SYD, BNE & ADL.
    Rendezvous Adelaide 2005

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fordman
    Thanks for that info on the DP0 - very interesting. For instance the handbook tells you that the "snow" button is for driving in snow but doesnt tell you what to expect - your article explains quite a bit.

    My first impression of the Scenic auto downshift was there was something wrong with it, but then I realised it was just different than other autos, and I now find the engine braking under deceleration to be very effective.
    The only fault I find with it (and reading between the lines on other articles it is a common concern) is that it seems to get a bit mixed up at low speeds. If you are driving at low throttle but start climbing a hill or even just accelerating away from a slow corner, it (sometimes) hangs on about 1500 rpm and doesnt go at all. If you put your foot down it then kicks down violently and revs too high - it's just not quite right.
    Fordman, that holding a low gear trait is the most frustrating characteristic an auto can have! My wife just got rid of a Hyundai Lantra (yeah, ok...) in which the auto was excellent EXCEPT for the exact trait you describe. You'd go round a right angle street corner, and it'd hold on and on in second, then you'd push the throttle further and further until ROOOOOOOAAAAR! you'd be off at 3/4 throttle in first. I know a fix was touted that consisted of a new throttle position sensor which had a 50% duty cycle rather than 75%, which caused a down change at 50% throttle. Yeah, I know it's a pile of crap, but the auto was actually OK other than this. Whenever I had to drive it, it was a manual...

    Stuey

  15. #15
    Good Sport danielsydney's Avatar
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    Justin PCO........(please carry on........)....

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    Quote Originally Posted by danielsydney
    Justin PCO........(please carry on............
    Here you go

    Peugeot 307 XS 1.6
    Aussiefrogged in MEL, PER, SYD, BNE & ADL.
    Rendezvous Adelaide 2005

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