Bellhousing info ..
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  1. #1
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    Default Bellhousing info ..

    Hi All

    I have been hunting high and low to find out if there are any differences between bellhousing between non transverse mounted generations
    I currently am in the process of repowering a 17TL with a later gen engine and was wanting to have a heads up re bolt pattern/starter location differences etc prior to purchasing.

    My good friend google has let me down re schematics to so such details and I havent managed to find anything prior on the forums (although could be due to not looking hard enough )

    Any help appreciated

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    TIA
    Dale.
    No substitute for C.I. ....except boost

    1973 R17 TL - R18 turbo repowered .
    1989 R25 Monaco v6.

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts REN TIN TIN's Avatar
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    Hello Dale and welcome to Aussiefrogs. It would help if you could tell us what motor you were planning to use. Some of the 'new generation' motors are very similar to the old (70's) motors.


    Ren
    "I cannot help but notice that there is no problem between us that cannot be solved by your departure. Mark Twain"

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    Ah yeah would probably help ;-)

    Just a NA 2.5 v6 out of a r25 .

    Im aware alot (tm) will need to be moved/relocated to achieve the swap (have done such things with other vehicles), but wanted to confirm the bolt pattern on the rear of the block was even going to match the existing transaxle and that the starter wasnt going to cause grief .
    After reading through the rest of the forum posts I got the impression until the switch to transverse engine layout Renault appeared to keep things pretty much interchangable between models aside differences to compensate for additional track width etc.

    Cheers
    Dale.
    No substitute for C.I. ....except boost

    1973 R17 TL - R18 turbo repowered .
    1989 R25 Monaco v6.

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts REN TIN TIN's Avatar
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    A V6 into a R17, now that's going to be a tight fit. Why don't you use the transaxle from the R25 instead of trying to marry the V6 up to the R17 box. You'll need to get shortened driveshatfts but that's going to be easier than a custom bellhousing.
    If it's a standard R17TL box it's probably not going to be strong enough for the r25 motor anyway. Even the 2.2 litre motor would be too much for a standard R17TL box unless you have a very gentle right foot.

    Ren
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    There is no bellhousing which woyuld interface between a 25V6 and a 352/365 Renault 17TL/G gearbox. Really that would be a pretty ludicrous combination anyway, as the torque from the V6 would destroy the 17 gearbox in short time.

    Best solution would be to use the 369 gearbox from a Renault 20/30 or UN1 from a 21/25. No bellhousing interchange problems there if you really have to use the V6.

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    Thanks for the replies guys ....thats why I was asking ....being an v8 nut for ages I havent aquired the knowledge on the european vehicles as yet .

    I did wonder re the strength of the 17 transaxle .....is there any differences in the halfshafts at the wheel end between the 17 and 25 ?

    Are there any differences in the mount locations between the 17 and 25 box ?

    Sorry about all the questions ...the current 17tl I own is the first renault so havent had alot to do with them until now ...

    Thanks
    Dale.
    No substitute for C.I. ....except boost

    1973 R17 TL - R18 turbo repowered .
    1989 R25 Monaco v6.

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    Quote Originally Posted by REN TIN TIN
    A V6 into a R17, now that's going to be a tight fit.
    Yeah I thought the same , however the main space issue in the bay is the lack of lenght rather than width , my main concern is finding enough space to fit all the belt driven bits (which on the TL is pretty much only the alternator outside stuff contained within the block constraints )

    The block height doesnt appear to be much different and as Im intending to just keep things standard (aside the ecu) atm I cant see that generating much of an issue .

    The main intention was to keep things renault , update the motive power to efi , and provide extra HP without stress ....as essentially this is to be regularly driven

    Cheers
    Dale.
    No substitute for C.I. ....except boost

    1973 R17 TL - R18 turbo repowered .
    1989 R25 Monaco v6.

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    1000+ Posts Europa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swishy
    The main intention was to keep things renault , update the motive power to efi , and provide extra HP without stress ....as essentially this is to be regularly driven
    Vehicle inspection and insurance should be an interesting exercise...
    '05 Pearl Black Mégane 5-Door LXR(Daily Driver), '75 Trak Yellow R16TSA (Parts Car), '74 Midnight Blue R17TS (Rebuilding), '73 457 Blue R17TL (Parts Car), '72 Alpine White R16TL (Retired), '69 Sunburst Brown R16TS (Awaiting Rebuild), '68 "Appliance White" Europa (Stored)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Europa
    Vehicle inspection and insurance should be an interesting exercise...
    Not if it is done right and certified .

    Hense why I am here ....I want to find the best method to achieve the end result with minimum fuss (ie finding out what will bolt in without fabrication essentially ) later disc's/caliapers etc will be more than adequate to handle the stopping if required , and its not going to be a fire breathing weapon at the end of the day ...that isnt the ultimate goal

    If anyone has any better ideas feel free to share ...my aim in signing up here was to learn more about the renault marque in general ...not get get everyones back up ....

    Thanks for the help so far ..

    Cheers
    Dale.
    No substitute for C.I. ....except boost

    1973 R17 TL - R18 turbo repowered .
    1989 R25 Monaco v6.

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    It will be interesting to see the weight bias after installation, how much more "nose heavy" the R17 will become - already a bit of an understeerer I always thought...

    R25 V6's have bloody big front discs, same as Laguna V6, but I guess the car is heavier overall as well.

    Anyone got any idea what the certification costs would be, and the process?

    Is putting a 6 cylinder engine into a car which never had more than 4 cylinders likely to make the certification harder or more costly?

    Do they require things like braking systems to be upgraded before passing the modifications? Obviously you'd upgrade them, but do they have some sort of test to ensure that the car is safe?

    I'm just curious how these things are done...
    '05 Pearl Black Mégane 5-Door LXR(Daily Driver), '75 Trak Yellow R16TSA (Parts Car), '74 Midnight Blue R17TS (Rebuilding), '73 457 Blue R17TL (Parts Car), '72 Alpine White R16TL (Retired), '69 Sunburst Brown R16TS (Awaiting Rebuild), '68 "Appliance White" Europa (Stored)

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    My opinion is that a V6 into a 17 is not the most practical transplant. The V6 is quite heavy relative to the stock 4 and would basically turn it into a lead pointed arrow with heavy and ponderous handling.

    David Cavanagh, Victoria AUS based Renault guru, did a V6 conversion on a Fuego and had to do maany modifications to get it to handle nicely. So it is unlikely an older 17 would require any less development.

    The 17 chassis is basically at the limit of its production development, and not much from the later range, ie Fuego, 21, 25 is directly adaptable to it. So apart from an R18 T rear axle for discs, any other mods to the front brakes will likely require a lot of extensive and expensive engineering.

    So, how about just rebuilding your motor, pop twin Webers on the side with some decent extractors and a nice cam. Or, if you like hairdryers, drop in the mechanicals from an 18T/Fuego T. But then again adapting the 18T/Fuego T front end is awkward as the stub axle carriers, wishbones and chassis rails are different. Also driveshafts will also have to be adapted or modified to fit as they are not standard or interchangeable items.

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    Around $380 > ~$700 in NZ at the moment depending on the mods ....I did a v8 transplant in a torana a while back .....but generally over here if the job is done nice and the vehicle doesnt suffer any all effects (re handling stopping etc ) you dont have any issues .

    The weight difference did consern me a little ...especially with the engine forward of the axle centre rather than over it ...but I havent found any figures yet , and if the construction (materials wise) of the v6 is similar to the alloy 4 then it isnt going to be too detrimental ...worse case senario will require beefier springs damp/rebound in the front end .

    At the end of the day if the vehicle stops at X velocity factory and the wieght increase isnt substancial theres no reason it wont stop the same with the repower ....the speed limit is 100kmh regardless
    Just the time it takes to get to X is less


    Cheers
    Dale.
    Quote Originally Posted by Europa
    It will be interesting to see the weight bias after installation, how much more "nose heavy" the R17 will become - already a bit of an understeerer I always thought...

    R25 V6's have bloody big front discs, same as Laguna V6, but I guess the car is heavier overall as well.

    Anyone got any idea what the certification costs would be, and the process?

    Is putting a 6 cylinder engine into a car which never had more than 4 cylinders likely to make the certification harder or more costly?

    Do they require things like braking systems to be upgraded before passing the modifications? Obviously you'd upgrade them, but do they have some sort of test to ensure that the car is safe?

    I'm just curious how these things are done...
    No substitute for C.I. ....except boost

    1973 R17 TL - R18 turbo repowered .
    1989 R25 Monaco v6.

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    Ah I see ...thats the kinda details I was after

    Basically I want to move to a efi setup , that was the original intention....

    Any of the later larger capacity 4 cylinders a better option ?

    It would be preferable not to have to change the stock transaxle, this is more of a daily driver than weekend track type situation , so its not likely to get to much abuse .

    Cheers
    Dale.
    Quote Originally Posted by Simon
    My opinion is that a V6 into a 17 is not the most practical transplant. The V6 is quite heavy relative to the stock 4 and would basically turn it into a lead pointed arrow with heavy and ponderous handling.

    David Cavanagh, Victoria AUS based Renault guru, did a V6 conversion on a Fuego and had to do maany modifications to get it to handle nicely. So it is unlikely an older 17 would require any less development.

    The 17 chassis is basically at the limit of its production development, and not much from the later range, ie Fuego, 21, 25 is directly adaptable to it. So apart from an R18 T rear axle for discs, any other mods to the front brakes will likely require a lot of extensive and expensive engineering.

    So, how about just rebuilding your motor, pop twin Webers on the side with some decent extractors and a nice cam. Or, if you like hairdryers, drop in the mechanicals from an 18T/Fuego T. But then again adapting the 18T/Fuego T front end is awkward as the stub axle carriers, wishbones and chassis rails are different. Also driveshafts will also have to be adapted or modified to fit as they are not standard or interchangeable items.
    No substitute for C.I. ....except boost

    1973 R17 TL - R18 turbo repowered .
    1989 R25 Monaco v6.

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts Europa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swishy
    Basically I want to move to a efi setup , that was the original intention.....
    See if you can find a R17TS, comes standard with Bosch EFI, hi-comp pistons, bigger valves, stronger rods and a really sweet five speed box.

    I can guarantee that will fit right in :-)

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...category=34202
    '05 Pearl Black Mégane 5-Door LXR(Daily Driver), '75 Trak Yellow R16TSA (Parts Car), '74 Midnight Blue R17TS (Rebuilding), '73 457 Blue R17TL (Parts Car), '72 Alpine White R16TL (Retired), '69 Sunburst Brown R16TS (Awaiting Rebuild), '68 "Appliance White" Europa (Stored)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swishy
    Around $380 > ~$700 in NZ at the moment depending on the mods ....I did a v8 transplant in a torana a while back .....but generally over here if the job is done nice and the vehicle doesnt suffer any all effects (re handling stopping etc ) you dont have any issues .

    At the end of the day if the vehicle stops at X velocity factory and the wieght increase isnt substancial theres no reason it wont stop the same with the repower ....the speed limit is 100kmh regardless
    Just the time it takes to get to X is less


    Cheers
    Dale.
    A Torana is a different kettle of fish, LH-UC basically were engineered from the factory for a V8, so it basically bolts straight in with new front springs. LC-LJ, there are kits available, so all the hard work has been done and should have little argument from the inspectors.

    I still think that a V6 17 though, would have even more understeer than an XU1 powered LC Torana S :-)

    Also, don't forget total driving enjoyment is more than just the shortest amount of time taken to reach 100km/h. Not all roads are dead straight! :-)


    Quote Originally Posted by Swishy
    Basically I want to move to a efi setup , that was the original intention....

    Any of the later larger capacity 4 cylinders a better option ?

    It would be preferable not to have to change the stock transaxle, this is more of a daily driver than weekend track type situation , so its not likely to get to much abuse ..
    I like the idea of a Clio 1.6 or an RS Clio motor in a 17, that sounds apppealing to a certain exten. Then again it is probably cheaper in the long run just to buy and enjoy the whole RSC :-)

    None of the later motors (ie Fuego 2 litre) will directly interface with your (I assume stock 17TL 352 fourspeed) gearbox.

    I've heard of people adapting the Camira JD/JE injection to 15/16/17 motors, but don't have any details on what is involved. For an everyday driver though, you really can't go wrong with the stock 17TL twin choke Weber.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Europa
    See if you can find a R17TS, comes standard with Bosch EFI, hi-comp pistons, bigger valves, stronger rods and a really sweet five speed box.

    I can guarantee that will fit right in :-)

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...category=34202
    Yeah I had looked at that option ....but they still run mechanical ignition dont they ?...and they run kjet style CIS .....

    Cheers
    Dale.
    No substitute for C.I. ....except boost

    1973 R17 TL - R18 turbo repowered .
    1989 R25 Monaco v6.

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts Europa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swishy
    Yeah I had looked at that option ....but they still run mechanical ignition dont they ?...and they run kjet style CIS .....

    Cheers
    Dale.
    Yes, mechanical ignition (Bosch) and it's a D-jet system, so electronic control using rotational sensor (extra set of points in the distributor), manifold pressure, coolant and air temp sensors, throttle butterfly position and off-throttle switch. Works OK IMO.
    '05 Pearl Black Mégane 5-Door LXR(Daily Driver), '75 Trak Yellow R16TSA (Parts Car), '74 Midnight Blue R17TS (Rebuilding), '73 457 Blue R17TL (Parts Car), '72 Alpine White R16TL (Retired), '69 Sunburst Brown R16TS (Awaiting Rebuild), '68 "Appliance White" Europa (Stored)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon
    A Torana is a different kettle of fish, LH-UC basically were engineered from the factory for a V8, so it basically bolts straight in with new front springs. LC-LJ, there are kits available, so all the hard work has been done and should have little argument from the inspectors.

    I still think that a V6 17 though, would have even more understeer than an XU1 powered LC Torana S :-)

    Also, don't forget total driving enjoyment is more than just the shortest amount of time taken to reach 100km/h. Not all roads are dead straight! :-)

    .
    Not quite as easy as it sounds due to various differences in front end geometry afa handling goes and the 4 cylinderx members are completely different to the v8 (requiring fab'd mounts or front end swap with a 6 or 8 )
    then theres the brakes ,diff.......

    but yes alot easier being that they came out factory with such .

    I agree handling does play a HUGE role even on the road to driving experience , the main reason as stated for the engine swap was to get electronic ignition and efi ....the ignition bits are getting harder to get over here and anything aside plugs/leads etc have to be sourced outside NZ which is a pita when the vehicle is used regularly ...

    so in that case *will* any of the later transaxle assemblies bolt in or will anything aside 17/16/15 require extensive mods ? getting the halfshaft s shortnened isnt a major issue if the transaxle itself bolts in.

    -----edit------
    ah yeah as Simon posted
    "Best solution would be to use the 369 gearbox from a Renault 20/30 or UN1 from a 21/25. No bellhousing interchange problems there if you really have to use the V6."

    Sorry should have reread before asking a repeated question....the main thing I guess is are they a bolt in swap ?

    ----edit------


    Cheers
    Dale.
    Last edited by Swishy; 29th July 2004 at 03:18 PM.
    No substitute for C.I. ....except boost

    1973 R17 TL - R18 turbo repowered .
    1989 R25 Monaco v6.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Europa
    Yes, mechanical ignition (Bosch) and it's a D-jet system, so electronic control using rotational sensor (extra set of points in the distributor), manifold pressure, coolant and air temp sensors, throttle butterfly position and off-throttle switch. Works OK IMO.
    Oh for sure it does the job ... the fuel pumps on the D/K-jet systems are a nice piece of work to

    can sustain insaine psi if allowed ... im just trying to move away from mechanical ignition and mpi would be a nice addition to ...the engine has lunched itself (more than likely due to no maintinance by previous owners and sitting around unused for 3+years )

    So since im in this situation I thought I might as well make the most of it
    The body / interior is still in good condition (and I have had all the rust removed that had started ) so its worth looking after / keeping it .


    Cheers
    Dale.
    No substitute for C.I. ....except boost

    1973 R17 TL - R18 turbo repowered .
    1989 R25 Monaco v6.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swishy
    so in that case *will* any of the later transaxle assemblies bolt in or will anything aside 17/16/15 require extensive mods ? getting the halfshaft s shortnened isnt a major issue if the transaxle itself bolts in.

    -----edit------
    ah yeah as Simon posted
    "Best solution would be to use the 369 gearbox from a Renault 20/30 or UN1 from a 21/25. No bellhousing interchange problems there if you really have to use the V6."

    Sorry should have reread before asking a repeated question....the main thing I guess is are they a bolt in swap ?

    ----edit------


    Cheers
    Dale.
    Nope the above gearboxes are not a bolt in solution, and if you are not going to use a V6 would be a bit of overkill. They could be made to fit, but lots of fabrication, and again require modified non standard driveshafts.

    Just another thought, did NZ ever get the Series 2 17TS's (carby 1647cc motor) with the different front end? These come with a 395 five speed gearbox that would nearly bolt straight into your body (also fitted to early 18GTS's). The other thing is, that I keep omitting to include, is that anything other than the stock four speed gearbox will require the floor pan bulge behind the gearbox to be enlarged, because 5th gear is tacked onto the end of the box, unless the car has been converted from an auto trans, when it has a big bulge floor.

    The other common replacement is the NG3 gearbox fitted to the Fuego 2 litre, then again NZ probably got the Fuego GTS with the NG1 and 1647cc motor which would also suit. But again both will require fabricated brackets and modified driveshafts to fit the 17.

  21. #21
    1000+ Posts REN TIN TIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swishy
    Yeah I thought the same , however the main space issue in the bay is the lack of lenght rather than width , my main concern is finding enough space to fit all the belt driven bits (which on the TL is pretty much only the alternator outside stuff contained within the block constraints )

    The block height doesnt appear to be much different and as Im intending to just keep things standard (aside the ecu) atm I cant see that generating much of an issue .

    The main intention was to keep things renault , update the motive power to efi , and provide extra HP without stress ....as essentially this is to be regularly driven

    Cheers
    Dale.
    Yes. height would be the least of you problems. The width would be likely to be a problem as well. You have to be able to mount your alternator somewhere (and air-con compressor if you are going to use one) and the exhaust manifolds could pose problems. Also, you will probably need a larger radiator, the standard R17 item would struggle to cope on hot days (I know NZ doesn't have too many hot days).

    Ren
    "I cannot help but notice that there is no problem between us that cannot be solved by your departure. Mark Twain"

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    Thanks guys , thats exactly what I was after.
    Yeah I had thought about the alternator , ill have to find a sample engine and get measurements but I think with a custom bracket it should be achievable within the bay ....exahust is a potential issue depending on how much room I have to play with between mount and heads ....(in relation to the front subframe) .

    I guess all I have left is to find a sample motor/box and do some measuring ...and take it from there .

    Cheers
    Dale.
    No substitute for C.I. ....except boost

    1973 R17 TL - R18 turbo repowered .
    1989 R25 Monaco v6.

  23. #23
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    Default r17 with a v6 and r20 box

    once u put the v6 and r20 box in where will you sit???

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fish
    once u put the v6 and r20 box in where will you sit???

    We are talking about a nicely engineered motor and box here , Im not trying to chuck in a BBV8 and T700R-5 box ........

    if it cant be done without moddifying things to that extent im not likely to pursue it ...

    Dale.
    No substitute for C.I. ....except boost

    1973 R17 TL - R18 turbo repowered .
    1989 R25 Monaco v6.

  25. #25
    1000+ Posts REN TIN TIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fish
    once u put the v6 and r20 box in where will you sit???
    The V6 motor isn't really any longer than a 4, just a lot wider and heavier. The 5 speed gearbox is longer mainly because of the 5th gear cluster on the end of the box.
    Last edited by REN TIN TIN; 2nd August 2004 at 06:50 AM.
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