15TS brake bleed
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  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    Default 15TS brake bleed

    hi everyone,

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    any tricks involved in bleeding a 15's brakes?

    this has come about as a result of having to replace the brake proportioning valve. when not stuck, the brakes were fine.... so the master cylinder should be fine.... but i am unable to get a decent quantity of fluid from any bleed nipple. the rears nipples were partially blocked, but the fronts appear to be quite clear.


    thanks
    davide

  2. #2
    COL
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    hi mb300sel

    First thing to do is make sure that all the dirt is out of the bleed nipples.
    Then start at the furthest nipple and start the bleeding process.
    You just keep doing it until you get all the air out and you are happy with the feel of the pedal.

    regards Col

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! 604 tragic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mb300sel
    hi everyone,

    any tricks involved in bleeding a 15's brakes?

    this has come about as a result of having to replace the brake proportioning valve. when not stuck, the brakes were fine.... so the master cylinder should be fine.... but i am unable to get a decent quantity of fluid from any bleed nipple. the rears nipples were partially blocked, but the fronts appear to be quite clear.


    thanks
    davide
    Hmmmmmmm - are you sure that the original problem and the bleeding problem are not a result of internally collapsed brake hoses which are acting like stuck valves? I dont really know about Renaults - but this is a very common problem on MBs
    So many projects - so little time.

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    Also don't have the car up with stands under the body, as the valve then senses through the small torsion arm, that the back wheels have no weight on them so minimal pressure will go through. Put the stands under the rear axle beam. Only a thought.
    '56 Renault 750 (16TS Power)
    '62 Renault Dauphine Gordini
    '89 Renault Alpine GTA V6 Turbo
    '08 Renault Megane sedan

  5. #5
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    Alan's right. In my experience, NONE goes through... Actually, I've experienced both issues mentioned - I've also had a delaminated hose where the inner layer of rubber comes off the reinforcement braiding and blocks the hose.

    (I use a home made pressure bleeder which works a treat. I've converted an aluminium espresso maker into a pressure chamber, with a clear hose going to a converted master cylinder cap. The pressure chamber has a normal car valve screwed into it. You pump up the chamber to about 15psi and open the bleed screws. It takes about 20 mins to do four wheels. It's designed so you can put fluid in the chamber and the master cylinder gets automatically topped up. Unfortunately, the chamber is a bit small (about a litre) so you have to pump it up for each wheel (using a bike pump). I'm investigating using a car tyre connected to the valve, like the Gunson's Eezibleed uses.)

    Stuey
    Last edited by Stuey; 9th July 2004 at 01:37 AM.

  6. #6
    Simon's Avatar
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    In addition to it being a collapsed flexible hose into the proportioning valve, and the axle being in off the ground with the springs extended, as previously detailed, it could also be that the master cylinder seals have been scored in the bleeding process.

    If maintenance has been extended, and as the rear bleed screws were partially blocked it sounds like it could be a long time since it was apart, the master cylinder may not be pumping any fluid through to the rear because the seals have been pushed into the “dirty” part of the cylinder while the pedal has been pumped damaging those seals and not pumping any fluid. Only solution here is to pull the master cylinder apart and replace the seals, at the same time honing the cylinder or getting it stainless steel sleeved if it is pitted (Norwood Power Brakes are quick and well priced when it comes to re-sleeving cylinders).

  7. #7
    Tadpole
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    thanks everyone,

    i suppose it could be the master.

    the car initially had pedal to the floor syndrome, though it still braked in a fashion. i attempted to bleed. no fluid out of rear..... pumped fast for quite a while to try and get fluid out but nothing. i assumed master.

    spoke to renault guy. he said check rear proportioning valve. i unstuck it with pliers and braking was restored. as the valve continued to stick i thought it best to replace.

    now, replaced, there is minimal fluid.

    so given all this, flex lines could be illiminated. the rear line looks fresh anyway.

    the car is on stands at the axle beam.


    thanks.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon
    ....it could also be that the master cylinder seals have been scored in the bleeding process...
    This was my reason for investing time in making the pressure bleeder.

  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger! 604 tragic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuey
    (I use a home made pressure bleeder which works a treat. I've converted an aluminium espresso maker into a pressure chamber, with a clear hose going to a converted master cylinder cap. The pressure chamber has a normal car valve screwed into it. You pump up the chamber to about 15psi and open the bleed screws. It takes about 20 mins to do four wheels. It's designed so you can put fluid in the chamber and the master cylinder gets automatically topped up. Unfortunately, the chamber is a bit small (about a litre) so you have to pump it up for each wheel (using a bike pump). I'm investigating using a car tyre connected to the valve, like the Gunson's Eezibleed uses.)

    Stuey
    This sounds like a very clever homemade tool.
    Any chance of a picture?
    So many projects - so little time.

  10. #10
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    Yep...I don't have digital gear, so we'll have to wait for the film + scanning. I won't forget, though.

    Stuey

  11. #11
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    OK, as promised, here are the pics of my pressure bleeder. It's made from a stove top coffee machine. You can see the standard car valve mounted on the side which is soldered into a threaded flange which is then screwed into the side of a threaded hole in the side of the unit. The brass fitting on top of the standard master cylinder cap is a swivelling fitting so the cap can be screwed on without twisting the pipe. The seal for the m/c cap is a stock R12 radiator cap seal with a hole nibbled out of the centre.

    The unit is designed so that the pipe coming down from the lid of the unit carries fresh fluid from the unit into the m/c, however, in practice this isn't the best way because the limited volume of the unit means that there isn't much air to compress and the unit loses pressure after each cylinder. Therefore, I leave it empty and just top up the m/c as I go. The unit has to be pressurised for each wheel. As I said above, a commercial unit called the Eezi Bleed uses your car spare as a large receptacle of pressurised air for this purpose and I'll be looking into this next brake job I do...

    Cheers

    Stuey
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 15TS brake bleed-bleeder1.jpg   15TS brake bleed-bleeder2.jpg   15TS brake bleed-bleeder3.jpg   15TS brake bleed-bleeder4.jpg  
    Last edited by Stuey; 30th July 2004 at 12:39 AM.

  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger! 604 tragic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuey
    the limited volume of the unit means that there isn't much air to compress and the unit loses pressure after each cylinder. Therefore, I leave it empty and just top up the m/c as I go. The unit has to be pressurised for each wheel. As I said above, a commercial unit called the Eezi Bleed uses your car spare as a large receptacle of pressurised air for this purpose and I'll be looking into this next brake job I do
    Stuey
    Hi Stuey - this is very good & practical, with the unit being designed to actually hold pressure. I have used those Eezi bleeds units before and know how they work. You use a spare tyre with only 10 pound in it - otherwise the plastic bottle lid will pops (& speads fluid everywhere).
    And you have replaced that cheap plastic bottle with a true pressure container.
    My suggestion is just to get a long hose & connect one end to your valve on the pot unit (remove the innards) and for the other end, get a clipon connector to the valve on the spare tyre. Like the ones on the cheap 12v tyre inflator units. I reckon that will be much better than an Eezi bleed and will allow you to bleed all in one go.
    So many projects - so little time.

  13. #13
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    Hi tragic.

    Yeah, I'd sort of though of a similar thing, however, I thought of getting a hose with double 'clip on' ends.

    I've tested my unit to 15psi, but as the standard R12 m/c is plastic I didn't want to go higher than this. Of course, the volume of the receptacle is what gives the system the 'stamina' to do more than one wheel, so the spare tyre route might have to be investigated...

    Cheers

    Stuey

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