12 valve Txi head on 2.2 litre donk
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  1. #1
    Member Platypus's Avatar
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    Default 12 valve Txi head on 2.2 litre donk

    Ok then,has anyone here tried this?I've heard it can be done but I'm curious about the details(ie.sourcing head.What cambelt,manifolds etc?)
    It sounds like a promising bolt-on for a bit more grunt if you already have a 2.2 in your car(like me).Can anyone help me with info or sources of info?

    BTW,even though I don't have a Renault we're talking about Renault bits so I thought I'd ask here.Hopefully the inquisition will excuse this little bit of heresy.
    Grovelling can be arranged if necessary

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    Last edited by Platypus; 12th June 2004 at 08:03 PM.
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    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Platypus
    Ok then,has anyone here tried this?I've heard it can be done but I'm curious about the details(ie.sourcing head.What cambelt,manifolds etc?)
    It sounds like a promising bolt-on for a bit more grunt if you already have a 2.2 in your car(like me).Can anyone help me with info or sources of info?

    BTW,even though I don't have a Renault we're talking about Renault bits so I thought I'd ask here.Hopefully the inquisition will excuse this little bit of heresy.
    Grovelling can be arranged if necessary
    I would have done this conversion a long time ago - if there were any 12 valve heads in the southern hemisphere.....

    Yes it can be done - the blocks are the same, but as the TXi is 2 litre, you will need to enlarge the combustion chambers to avoid an excessive compression ratio. Manifolds are also unique to this head as well.
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  3. #3
    Member Platypus's Avatar
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    Yeah,I figured I'd have to get a head from Pomland or somewhere but I'd forgotten about the compression ratio.This also brings to mind the probability that the Txi pistons have different valve recesses to the normal 8 valve ones.
    This could get tricky.
    It may be necessary to use Txi pistons as well,but as the standard compression ratio for a Txi is 9.3:1 running an unmodified Txi head on a 2.2 litre block would bump this to 10.0:1.This is on the high side but might be ok with PULP.
    Manifolds are an obvious one but I reckon they could be dealt with fairly easily.Basically I was intending to use custom headers for the exhaust side and a modified(cut and welded runners)Txi manifold for the intake.
    Last edited by Platypus; 12th June 2004 at 11:24 PM.
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    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    For use in a Pug? If so, custom manifolds are needed anyway as you said.

    No Renault Douvrin motors (except the deisel version) have piston valve releifs.

    Hadnt actually thought about what the compression would actually be - 10.1 should be fine on PULP, especially if you run an EFI system with a knock sensor.
    I have heard the TXi head is more prone to cooloing probelms and popping headgaskets - dont know if its myth though...

    If you find a source, I will put in on shipping to get a couple in
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    Member Platypus's Avatar
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    That bit about 10.0:1 compression was assuming(there's that nasty word again!)that the piston domes on my Sti(9.2:1) are about the same as the Txi ones.I probably shouldn't assume this.
    As for cooling problems and blown headgaskets

    I hope it's a myth.If it isn't I'll be looking at other options.
    I'll go annoy some Poms(always fun )and see what I can find out.
    505 STi-The only acceleration is lateral!

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    Member Platypus's Avatar
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    OK,so I heard the R21 turbo club in Pomland are the crew to ask about this conversion.Only problem is that every time I try to get onto their website my computer locks up
    So I'm sick of having to turn the thing off.
    Doesn't happen with any other site
    Temporarily stumped and giving up for the night.
    505 STi-The only acceleration is lateral!

  7. #7
    Member Jack Daniel's Avatar
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    Default TXi head - what a great idea

    I was interested in getting an R21Turbo engine from the UK, but I had never been a really big fan of turbo's.
    This was the first time I heard of the TXi, I am now looking at getting a TXi engine complete. Cant be that big a swap.
    I will keep updates comming.

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    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    The TXi motor also has the crankcase stiffener brace that the Turbos use - something all Douvrin motors need .

    The TXi motor is rated at 140 bhp, which is not bad for a circa 1990 2 litre.
    The R21 TXi got the 4 wheel discs with ABS and Turbo front brakes as well, so would have been a good buy if you didnt want the hassles of Turbos.
    It also was fitted to the R25 TXi as well.
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    Member Platypus's Avatar
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    Hey guys,I just found this place on the net;

    http://www.intapart.com/index

    email:[email protected]o.uk

    They are currently wrecking an R25 Txi and claim to have 1000's of engines in their yard(not all Txi ones of course).
    Anyway I put in a request for purchase and freight prices.I'll keep you posted.
    505 STi-The only acceleration is lateral!

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    Member Platypus's Avatar
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    OK,I got a reply from Intapart this morning.They say they don't have any Txi donks in at the moment.The one they listed must have been sold or rooted.
    Also,from what I can gather on the net the headgasket/reliability issue seems to be another case of "some people swear by them,others swear at them".
    Ain't conflicting info wonderful?
    505 STi-The only acceleration is lateral!

  11. #11
    Member Jack Daniel's Avatar
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    Icon10 TXi swap

    I've just manage to buy a wrecked 21TXi in the UK and am having it stripped, and getting the engine sent to Aus. 50 pounds - couldnt turn it down

    The cam belt issue has been resolved, as the belt is the same as the Fuego (There are 2 part numbers - <91 = 3/4 inch, >91 = 19mm. Close enough to the same size, just metric equivalent)

    If it was to go on a 2.2, it would be the standard 2.2 belt. The pulleys are the same size, the 2.2 is just a bit longer (118 teeth instead of 116)

    Does anyone know if the brakes are a "bolt on" to a Fuego? I think the fronts are the same as a 21 turbo, but not sure about the back, and I want an easy job, not months of stuffing around.

    Will the instrument panel fit in a Fuego? Physical fit is all I'm after - I can handle the electronics. I hate the oil level guage in the Fuego, and the 21 guages look better, but I cant find measurements.

    Is anyone out there interested in any other bits off the 21? Let me know, and if they are OK and I dont want them, I'll just ask you to chip in for shipping, you can have the parts free.

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    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    I want the gearbox, brakes (inc ABS computer, master cylinder, and wiring), the TXi alloy wheels, radiator, headlights and just about everything off that car!!!!!!!!

    But I am deadly serious at the very least about the rear brake calipers, mounting brackets and discs. The rest is the would be nice catagory, depending on what it will cost.
    Last edited by Haakon; 23rd June 2004 at 02:17 PM.
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  13. #13
    Member Jack Daniel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haakon
    I want the gearbox, brakes (inc ABS computer, master cylinder, and wiring), the TXi alloy wheels, radiator, headlights and just about everything off that car!!!!!!!!

    But I am deadly serious at the very least about the rear brake calipers, mounting brackets and discs. The rest is the would be nice catagory, depending on what it will cost.
    Haakon,

    1.Gearbox is available (I want to keep the Fuego's shorter gearing).
    2.Brakes - I havent decided yet if I want them to fit to my Fuego - if they will fit - (yep-even the ABS) and the brakes are one of the reasons the car failed MOT. Not sure whats wrong with them at this time.
    3.Wheels are available
    4.Radiator - depends if it fits in the Fuego, and is of larger capacity,and isnt damaged - if not, OK
    5.Headlights - not sure of the condition.
    6.All the other bits - I'll get a full list as soon as I can.

    I will also be keeping most of the Fuego compatible parts.

    At this time, I have been quote ₤300 for shipping ($750AUST), so if I can split this up between a few of us, it makes for a bloody cheap box of spares.

    On another note, can you measure your 21's instrument panel, or do you know if it will fit in a Fuego?

    Shane

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Daniel
    Haakon,


    At this time, I have been quote ₤300 for shipping ($750AUST), so if I can split this up between a few of us, it makes for a bloody cheap box of spares.

    On another note, can you measure your 21's instrument panel, or do you know if it will fit in a Fuego?

    Shane
    I don't want any of the bits, but I'm wondering rather than the people OS just pulling bits off the car with the risk of something getting left off, could they gas axe the roof at the pillars, cut out the centre floor section and just slam the front and rear cut together to get the maximum amount of gear back here? That way you retain a majority of the stuff like brakes etc all in one piece and can try them for size when the stuff arrives without the risk of losing parts.

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    Member Platypus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Daniel
    I've just manage to buy a wrecked 21TXi in the UK and am having it stripped, and getting the engine sent to Aus. 50 pounds - couldnt turn it down
    I've just checked the R21 Turbo forum (UK).So far there's only one reply to my question about Txi heads on 2.2 litre blocks.Pasted herewith:-

    Waste of money IMO, you could get more power and reliability from a 2.0 8v with the amount you'd spend. Plus you'd keep burning valves out, the turbo has sodium cooled valves for a reason.
    The 2.2 gives better midrange, but the 2.0 with a shorter throw will rev higher before sticking a rod out the block.

    Spend the dosh on a 2.0 turbo.

    Again this is all in my personal opinion
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    Last edited by Platypus; 24th June 2004 at 01:35 PM.
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    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    The instrument panel itself is very different, but the guages are interchangable to the Fuego housings (if its the red dials you are after) Getting the trip computer to fit may be a challenge, but it should be doable.

    Radiator is R21 specific

    I will have to be honest here (even though I REALLY want them) and say the back brakes will definantly bolt straight onto the Fuego. The fronts are very different though - use R25 fronts (bolt straight on if you use the R25 hub upright) and fit the ABS target to the CV. The rest of the ABS should be "easily" fitted - its just brakes lines and wiring to sort out. Maybe your contact in the UK can drop in another set of rear calipers/discs/brackets from any NA ABS R21 or 4 cylinder ABS R25?

    The wheels you should get for the Fuego - they are a very nice design.

    Do you know if the gearbox is a NG3 (like all 8 valve NA R21s) or a UN1 (as fitted to the turbos)? If the latter, I will need the inner CV joints. This is a "would be nice for a future Fuego project" thing and cant afford to spend much money on.....

    The rear brakes I really want to ditch the horrid drums from the back of my R25.

    This is exactly the thing I have been wanting to do to a Fuego for years - you are beating me to it!!! I was hoping to have the only one.... Guess I will have to go one better and graft a R21 Turbo Quadra drivetrain (and maybe a 13B turbo rotary ) into a Fuego with a custom independent rear end, nice silver paint job and black leather interior. One day.......
    Last edited by Haakon; 24th June 2004 at 05:04 PM.
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  17. #17
    Member Jack Daniel's Avatar
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    Default 21 bits

    Haakon,

    Thanks for the info on the dash. Not after the red dials, just the later look Fuego dash (the one not imported to Aust), but info I have from another source indicates a Fuego Turbo dash gets rid of that bloody useless oil level guage. Any one who is prepared to trust the level of oil in thier car to a french gauge, should almost be considered insane enough going italian, or maybe even (shudder) english and Lucas - the prince of darkness. (no offence to anyone, I've been there with a Rover, Range Rover, Jaguar and a string of Fiats & Alfas)

    I might consider doing a custom job though, keeping the Fuego speedo & tacho (getting some white faces) and sticking in a couple of VDO's for oil temp & pressure, and a custom digital voltmeter & ammeter with remote sensors on the battery.

    Also not interested in the trip computer - had one in a Rover SE2 Vitesse and Jag XJ-6 and never used them.

    I'll see what I can do on the rear brake issue for you - no promises though. Would you like the whole 21 brake package with ABS stuff, or really only the rear disc's and caliper's?

    Do you know how the handbrake mechansm works on the rear disc's? Ive ordered a 21 Haynes manual, but it's not here yet.

    You can have the radiator and the wheels (I'm pretty sold on CSA Force 2's in a 16" x 7")

    I'll also check on the gearbox. You are more than welcome to the drive shafts/CV joints as well.

    I did think of the 21 quadra gear as well as a turbo on the TXi head - just became a nightmare as far as $$$$$$, engineering and compliance. If you ever do it, I'll come to Melbourne to check it out and buy you a couple of drinks - you will have earned them.

    Once I have all the bits , I will start documenting the whole thing and posting updates on my website and here. All with pic's, diagrams, drawings and explanations.

    As an open invitation to anyone here, I am an Electronics Engineer, and I am open to provide info to anyone with electrical or electronic gremlins. Just be aware that at times, it is very difficult to diagnose a problem via email.

    I am also going to be making up a new circuit board for the fuse panel, and doing some custom wiring and paneling under the bonnet, (Who ever thought of supplying the Thermofans straight from the alternator, should be killed - slowly). I will make the circuit diagrams and the board layouts available to all. Probably opened a whole can of worms here, but I'll live with it.

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    This is getting too tempting, but I think I better give myself a reality check and think finacially. Any Fuego project is likely to years away, and after I go to Europe anyway - so I will be able to get a crashed R21 T and srtrip and ship the bits myself (along with a complete R21T Quadra ). The TXi alloys are a very nice wheel - those and the gearbox I would have depending on the price. I have to consider not just the shipping from pommyland, but from adelaide as well and I think its more than I can really justify at this point

    But the rear brakes I would really like, as these wont cost a lot to post across and will probably add nothing to the shipping of a motor from the UK.
    The discs are only worth shipping if they are good - I can get Carrevelle to get me in new ones for not much. Its the calipers and caliper mounting bracket thats key. (the handbrake simply pulls on a lever - you should be able to use the original cables, but you may have shorten the inner cable)

    What I ideally want is a pair of rear calipers and mounting brackets (and discs if they are healthy) from any 4 cylinder R25 (ie an ABS model as non ABS will be drum rear like mine). The whole ABS would be nice, but not worth the dosh at the moment.
    I just looked at the EBC catalog, and these are identical discs to a Fuego turbo, but the R21 ones are the same diameter and everything, but are not as "high", so may need spacers under the bracket mount where it attachs to the stub axle to get the right offset.
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    Banned renaulturbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Daniel
    I was interested in getting an R21Turbo engine from the UK, but I had never been a really big fan of turbo's.
    This was the first time I heard of the TXi, I am now looking at getting a TXi engine complete. Cant be that big a swap.
    I will keep updates comming.
    Me being a fellow Fuego owner and a big fan of dropping a R21T engine in a Fuego cannot understand why you arent a big fan of turbo's? What dont you like about them? Your happy with 140 hp in the TXI...the R21T puts out 130 kW and 270 Nm of torque....stock!!!! They get'em up to about 200 kW in England. You'll never get close to that with a NA engine

  20. #20
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Jack - on second thoughts, the front brakes from the TXi should easily fit the Fuego. The two cars use the same hub/bearing, and any wheel that fits a R21 fits a Fuego, so there will be no clearance issues. Its just the suspension uprights that are different, so they are likely to have different caliper mounting points - a simple adaptor made of high tensile steel plate will easily fix that. They are big brakes on a TXi, and will easily bury the nose of a Fuego in the bitumen
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  21. #21
    1000+ Posts Europa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Daniel
    ...but info I have from another source indicates a Fuego Turbo dash gets rid of that bloody useless oil level guage. Any one who is prepared to trust the level of oil in thier car to a french gauge, should almost be considered insane...
    It's a funny old thing, but I don't know of anyone who has suffered an engine failure due to the gauge indicating oil that isn't there. Do you know of any instances?

    The same setup seems to work great on my R25 and Dad's Laguna too
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    Member Jack Daniel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by renaulturbo
    Me being a fellow Fuego owner and a big fan of dropping a R21T engine in a Fuego cannot understand why you arent a big fan of turbo's? What dont you like about them? Your happy with 140 hp in the TXI...the R21T puts out 130 kW and 270 Nm of torque....stock!!!! They get'em up to about 200 kW in England. You'll never get close to that with a NA engine
    renaulturbo,
    I have had a couple of turbo cars in the past (Saab & Nissan), and even though the make more power and tourque, and its fun playing with the off boost to on boost transition, I "personally" prefer the screamy, cammy, rev-it fun for driving through the Adelaide hills.
    Shane(Jack)Daniel

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Europa
    It's a funny old thing, but I don't know of anyone who has suffered an engine failure due to the gauge indicating oil that isn't there. Do you know of any instances?

    The same setup seems to work great on my R25 and Dad's Laguna too
    I like it too - especially the R25 one that turns into an oil pressure guage once the engine is started
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  24. #24
    Member Jack Daniel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Europa
    It's a funny old thing, but I don't know of anyone who has suffered an engine failure due to the gauge indicating oil that isn't there. Do you know of any instances?
    Europa,

    Its not that I know anyone who has had a failure, I just wouldnt trust it as the only means of checking the oil (there are blondes out there after all).
    IMHO, they are a waste of space on an instrument panel.

    Im probably going to do a custom job, something like the attachment layout. Depends on actual sizes of everything I can get.

    There is also another panel (attached) from something else - a Fuego Turbo I think.
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  25. #25
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    That instrument panel looks like its from the later LHD dash, which would be the same instruments as the R21 and R19. But this dash was never made in RHD - all RHD drive cars retained the early dash that was shared with later R18s. Custom would be the way to go. I would leave it as is though, apart from maybe converting to an electronic speedo, playing with colours (I like the red from the R21, which should fit straight in) and maybe use the oil level/pressure guage from an R25. You still get the level guage (which I have always found dead accurate) but it doubles as a pressure guage. I find volt/amp meters a bit redundant in these days of good alternator/battery technology - a little red light is enough.

    I would try to to fit thetrip computer with the digital fuel guage - I like it and use it often in the R25. You would probably need to use the TXi engine ECU though (probably worth doing anyway - Wolfs are good, but the TXi is "free" and will work just fine - they are tuned with performance angle anyway), as it gets the fuel flow rates from there.
    Last edited by Haakon; 25th June 2004 at 12:37 PM.
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