R17TS Gearbox Removal
  • Help
Page 1 of 2 12 Last
Results 1 to 25 of 31
Like Tree15Likes

Thread: R17TS Gearbox Removal

  1. #1
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Boonah Qld
    Posts
    2,636

    Default R17TS Gearbox Removal

    Has any one ever removed the gearbox without removing the engine. I have a vehicle hoist and a transmission jack and I have removed the engine a few times too many and so decide to take just the gearbox out to replace the seals. Mainly the engine driveshaft seal in the bell housing which was leaking. The gearbox came out reasonably easily and seals were eventually changed, crown wheel tightened up a bit as it had a whine. But now came the time to put it back in to the car. Despite spending quite a few hours and adding two jacks into the mix the gearbox is still not properly back in. Getting the bell housing to line up parallel with the motor has been the most difficult part as it hits the steering box cross member. I have tried tilting the motor with a jack but it only lifted the whole car the motor would not tilt. The bell housing is now parallel with the engine and out about and inch. Now I need to get the pinion into the end of the crankshaft. Next time I get the engine drive shaft out I am going to turn a chamfer on the end rather than the flat end that has to be lined up almost perfectly to get it home.

    Advertisement


    I'll never take the box out without the engine in future either.

    I was running Alan Moores expensive gearbox oil. (Redline ?). I did check for little bits of shiny syncro bits but there was none. However the interior of the box was coated with a blue slime, for want of a better word, which I saw as a good thing as I assume it is a coating that will always help prevent wear.

  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! Only19's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    767

    Default

    That brings back memories of my multiple R12 days. Did quite a few gearbox changes - but only one by leaving the engine in position. The one thing that has stuck in my mind about that exercise was to remember "ALWAYS pull the motor out when pulling the gearbox out"!
    Cheers
    Bryce
    Who needs brakes? They only slow you down ....

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Geraldton
    Posts
    1,636

    Default

    For the R12 I’ve always removed the gearbox without taking the motor out. If you want to take the gearbox out without needing to separate the ball joints on the hub it’s important to ensure the car is on a flat surface that is at the wheels are taking the weight of the car. That way you can push the gearbox one way then the other to free the driveshafts.


    For the 17 you might want to check that the cam pulley is not catching on the crossmember. I agree with you on the chamfer but if you’ve been pushing and shoving on the gearbox you may have given the input shaft a slight mushroom-like flare on the end going into the pilot bearing -it won’t fit like that.

    Has the motor sagged back on the engine mounts?

    Is it possible to lever the motor forward to get the rear to drop?

    Where did you disconnect the exhaust?

    Did you use a mandrill drill to locate the clutch plate?

    Its pretty frustrating, I know.
    Daily Drivers: R10, R12, R17T(?) Decouvrable

    In the Shed(s):
    R8 (1.4 motor, 4 shock rear end), Dauphine, Pugeot 404

    In the Past:
    Dauphine X2, R10 X lots, R12 X2, R16TS, R17TS

  4. #4
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Perth, WA, Australia
    Posts
    11,305

    Default

    No idea but I hope this moves closer the R1063 replica....

    I can endorse the blue slime comment. When my 4CV gearbox developed a truly awful noise and I replaced it, the blue slime certainly coated everything. I still don't understand what the noise was mind you....

    Good luck with the fiddly job.
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1950 (R1062)
    Renault R8 1965 (R1130)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2006 (daughter's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2007 (mine)

    Citroën CX Pallas 1980 (moved on to new custodian)

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    471

    Default

    You can get it out with motor still in. If your r17 still has the bracket on the bottom of the cross member you’ll need to remove that. You do need to remove pulley from camshaft too. It’s tight and a bit of motor tilting required but will come out.

  6. #6
    COL
    COL is offline
    A110 COL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Van Diemen's Land
    Posts
    4,339

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by angru View Post
    You can get it out with motor still in. If your r17 still has the bracket on the bottom of the cross member you’ll need to remove that. You do need to remove pulley from camshaft too. It’s tight and a bit of motor tilting required but will come out.
    I second that.
    Regards Col

    1973 Renault R12 Station Wagon
    1976 Renault R12 Station Wagon
    2002 Renault Laguna V6
    1973 Alpine A110

    http://alpine-a110.weebly.com/

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Boonah Qld
    Posts
    2,636

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Exfrogger View Post
    For the R12 I’ve always removed the gearbox without taking the motor out. If you want to take the gearbox out without needing to separate the ball joints on the hub it’s important to ensure the car is on a flat surface that is at the wheels are taking the weight of the car. That way you can push the gearbox one way then the other to free the driveshafts.


    For the 17 you might want to check that the cam pulley is not catching on the crossmember. I agree with you on the chamfer but if you’ve been pushing and shoving on the gearbox you may have given the input shaft a slight mushroom-like flare on the end going into the pilot bearing -it won’t fit like that.

    Has the motor sagged back on the engine mounts?

    Is it possible to lever the motor forward to get the rear to drop?

    Where did you disconnect the exhaust?

    Did you use a mandrill drill to locate the clutch plate?

    Its pretty frustrating, I know.
    No I pulled the hubs off, thats easy enough. Also removed cam pulley. When I got a new exhaust I had a bolt apart join put in it just before the centre muffler and off at the manifold so no exhaust problems. I didn't remove the clutch or pressure plate so should still line up. It has always been a b@#$ to get back together usually requires a big lever and some pressure when I have had the engine out. Tomorrow I'll drop the car down so I can look at it from above as I have the gearbox rear mounts bolted up on longer bolts and the engine to bell housing on longer bolts and it looks square and parallel but we'll see.

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Boonah Qld
    Posts
    2,636

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by angru View Post
    You can get it out with motor still in. If your r17 still has the bracket on the bottom of the cross member you’ll need to remove that. You do need to remove pulley from camshaft too. It’s tight and a bit of motor tilting required but will come out.
    Yes they do come out I have changed the auto box on the R15 to manual then back to auto then out when the auto was faulty. All with the engine in and no hoist just ramps and a trolley jack. Now it has to come out again because it wears the thrust washer that is also the spacer to ensure the oil pump spacing is correct. I can no longer get a hardened metal spacer that is about .25 mm thick. So need to replace that again. I have a spare 12 auto box so hope the spacer is the correct thickness for mine. I want to keep it auto because they are rare even in France. Most are now manual. As mine was for quite a few years when it was a daily driver.

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    loneliness capital of the world
    Posts
    9,324

    Default

    I am not sure I get this. Is the current 'box in or out? And if the car is a 17TS, shouldn't it have a 365 (i.e. five speed) box? Asking because my 17G has a split bracket for the 'box, not the 352 type one piece bracket that goes under the 'box from one side to the other.

    Anyhoo. The 'box (be it four or five speed) comes out/goes in, but it's a pig of a job. I've done it several times on several cars with no hoist either, just the car (scissor) jack and a lot of swearing. Trick is to get the clutch aligned properly and then making sure you match the angle of the engine with the 'box when trying to push the 'box in, otherwise it simply won't go. With a hoist and a transmisson jack should be easy. I had to do it with only two hands and the jack lying on my back under the car(s). Wouldn't do it again these days though.

    What does that spacer look like, Sunroof? I am not familiar with the auto 'box. Asking because you might be able to get one made. If it's a simple enough shape, even I could make it.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    471

    Default

    I’ve seen a couple of coments about removing gearbox without undoing suspension to get driveshafts out. When I was working on these cars full time I heard people talking about this, and wondered if they were serious... I’ve seen one of the Haynes manuals suggests you can remove a 16ts box without undoing the balljoints to get the driveshafts out.. I’ve never thought it possible in reality though. Admittedly, I’ve never attempted to pull a Renault gearbox out without fully removing the diveshafts... so maybe it’s easier than I amaginr it could be, but if it can be done I wonder if the time you save of undoing a balljoint, and a tie rod end, and a driveshaft nut is worth it to have the shaft still in a fairly cramped work area.
    Oh, and reading the original post again, if check that the clutch is perfectly aligned before attempting to fit gearbox. If you have a spare input shaft use that! And it’s easier with two people underneath as it can take a bit of ”jiggeling” to get it back in and to have somebody to tag team with saves you haveing to put your stamina to the test. I’ve only done it once on the ground (on my 17g in my parents carport when I broke a crownwheel on the 365 ... but I was younger then and better at laying under cars) and countless times on a hoist. Not fun on the ground.

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Geraldton
    Posts
    1,636

    Default

    I’ve done a quite a few R12 boxes by pushing the box one way then the other. It would be my preferred method. Once free from the box the driveshafts are easy to wire out of the way. But the driveshafts have to be horizontal that’s the trick, with the suspension at full droop it just won’t happen.

    Sunny, if you used lengthened bolts or studs in an attempt to pull the gearbox onto the back of the motor you may have squished the lip of pilot bearing a little bit. You may think about taking the box out having a good look at the input shaft, and as best you can inspect the pilot bearing, take a deep breath, have another cup of coffee, and then put the bugger in. Of course you’ve been on this forum long enough and you’ve probably done enough gearboxes to know not to put too much grease on the input shaft lest you get a little bit of hydraulic lock.

    Hard to imagine, and I know you said that you didn’t remove the clutch, but in jiggling the gearbox out is there any possibility that you could have caused the clutch plate to move out of alignment?

    Do you have a spare input you can use as a mandrel to check alignment?
    Last edited by Exfrogger; 21st January 2020 at 03:32 AM.
    Daily Drivers: R10, R12, R17T(?) Decouvrable

    In the Shed(s):
    R8 (1.4 motor, 4 shock rear end), Dauphine, Pugeot 404

    In the Past:
    Dauphine X2, R10 X lots, R12 X2, R16TS, R17TS

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Boonah Qld
    Posts
    2,636

    Default

    Col the spacer is just like a big washer. I have made one out of shim but going by the symptoms I would say it has chewed it up. The original is very hard steel that I couldn't bend by hand even though only .25. Perhaps there is a reason for it to chew up. When I take it out and remove the guts, as it is right at the back near the oil pump, I guess I'll know. Another one day job. The symptoms are, oil pressure is low again.

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Boonah Qld
    Posts
    2,636

    Default

    I'm not up for taking the gearbox out again just yet. Yes I do have a spare shaft to check clutch plate alinement. I might get my neighbour over for a helping hand. First I'll look at it from the top which I haven't done yet. May be it is some thing simple like the earth cable has dropped into the space. Domestic chores take precidence today acording to SWMBO.

  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger! Rally's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Pearl Beach NSW
    Posts
    562

    Default

    They can be a bit of a stuggle to get back in . One thing I have found helps a lot is by using a rat tail file create a champher on the clutch plate to make it easier to get on to the spigot shaft. Try fitting the plate on the shaft a few times by hand to perfect the amount of filing needed.
    To engauge the clutch plate on the spigot you must rotate the spigot shaft , I always used two dead inner joints to do this , they make a usefull handle to jiggle the box into place and with box in gear you can turn the gear box over to engauge the spigot into the cluch plate.
    Have you disconected the exhaust to allow motor to tilt down?
    Peugeot 504 Rally car V6
    Peugeot 504 LTI
    Peugeot 504 Ti
    Citroen SM
    Citroen Light 15
    Peugeot 406 SV 5 speed
    Citroen DS23 EFi Safari
    Toyota Land Criuser V8 Super charged ( to tow the rally car )
    Rally with www.AMSAG.com.au

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    3,653

    Default

    Have you used a spring compressor between the sway bar and crossmember on the left hand side of the motor to angle the motor down? as per factory workshop manual.
    If you've got too much traction, you haven't got enough horse power ...




    .2010 Holden Commodore Ute
    2001 Renault Sport Clio Cup 27 of 85
    1973 Alpine Renault A310/4 1600 VE

  16. #16
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    471

    Default

    Sometimes it can help rotating the crankshaft too... if it’s a ta it won’t have a bit on the front to turn, but can turn flywheel with a screwdriver whilst having an assistant jiggle the gearbox..

    A couple of months ago I was putting a motor in a hilux... couldn’t get the clutch to line up... spent hours on it and eventually pulled it out to work out what was wrong... I’d used a rod with 2 metal sleeves to long up the clutch... one of the metal sleeves was still in the spigot bearing preventing the input shaft going in... 15 min later it was in and I felt very stupid.

  17. #17
    VIP Sponsor 59 Floride's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    It's how I roll...Brisbane
    Posts
    33,971

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunroof View Post
    I'm not up for taking the gearbox out again just yet. Yes I do have a spare shaft to check clutch plate alinement. I might get my neighbour over for a helping hand. First I'll look at it from the top which I haven't done yet. May be it is some thing simple like the earth cable has dropped into the space. Domestic chores take precidence today acording to SWMBO.
    ...is that a thumb print I see on your forehead Rob?
    Every day when I wake up I reach up in the darkness with my eyes shut and if I cannot feel anything that resembles a wooden lid I know it will be a good day. No lid today.

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Boonah Qld
    Posts
    2,636

    Default

    If it was only a thumb print it would be ok its the mallet I worry about

  19. #19
    COL
    COL is offline
    A110 COL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Van Diemen's Land
    Posts
    4,339

    Default

    I have tried just about all the methods mentioned here for removing the transaxle.

    I find it easiest to remove the driveshafts by breaking the top ball joint and also the steering ball joint. I then reassemble the suspension so that I can move the car if necessary. I find that it gets the driveshafts out of the way and you don't run the risk of damaging them.

    As mentioned above you need to remove the camshaft pulley and tilt the motor to aid getting the bell housing past the cross member.

    when it comes to lining up the transaxle with the engine, I use a dummy shaft to align the clutch plate so that the input shaft to the transaxle will just slides into the clutch plate and the back of the crankshaft. You may need to twist the transaxle a little to align the spines.

    I usually remove the whole drive train as a unit nowadays as I find there is very little difference in the amount of work involved. It is sure easier to align the engine and transaxle when both are sitting on the floor of the shed.

    This is just my worth as there is not really a right and a wrong way to do this, what ever you find the easiest with the tools and other gear that you have available to do the job. I don't have a hoist so I have lay on my back under the car to do the work under there, so I suppose the above paragraph is my preferred method.

    Anyway good luck with it Rob and you will get there with a little perseverance.
    Regards Col

    1973 Renault R12 Station Wagon
    1976 Renault R12 Station Wagon
    2002 Renault Laguna V6
    1973 Alpine A110

    http://alpine-a110.weebly.com/

  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger! Jensen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    388

    Default

    I put mine back in a few months ago. Got two mates around on a Saturday afternoon and it still took a couple of hours of jiggling and swearing but eventually got it to line up and go together. My rebuilt motor had no manifolds, water pump etc so was plenty of room around it and we could tilt it back a fair way.

    If you have an engine crane I too would drop the motor, assemble on the ground and then reinstall the whole unit.
    2002 Monaco Blue Renaultsport Clio 172
    1975 R1317 Renault 17 Gordini

  21. #21
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Boonah Qld
    Posts
    2,636

    Default

    Still a delay. I have to move my Floride so I'll take it for a road test as I have just finished a tune up. If it goes ok I might take it to the club monthly meeting tonight despite threat of a thunder storm. It is partially under the R17 and so I need to move it to lower the hoist. Last time I lowered it with a car on it I managed to punch a large hole in the engine cover of the Floride as I forgot about the tow bar on the Landrover when I lowered it. The hole is still there, another gunna job. Perhaps after that I'll check out the gearbox again this time from above. Another problem with fitting the drive shaft into the pinion bearing is that the driveshaft has about 2 or 3 mm play so as you jiggle it just stays where it is jambed against the bearing edge. A good wiggle is needed to move it away from its fixed position. I do appreciate the people that have told me they to have had trouble doing this. I don't feel so bad about my efforts now.

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts Shoji's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Mandurah WA
    Posts
    1,193

    Default

    Rob, when I reinstalled my box and engine the box was fitted 1st. Then bare engine went in but I remember it was a bugger getting it aligned. Good luck with it.

    Sent from my Moto G Play using aussiefrogs mobile app
    “Listen very carefully, I shall say this only once.” Cheers. John

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts driven's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    1,570

    Default

    Easy way I found is make up 2 long rods. Ensure clutch plate is aligned properly.
    Always use new bolts on clutch plate

    These rods are then fitted into the two lower holes on the engine block.

    Ensure the alignment spigots ( small hollow tubes ) are fitted in these holes as well

    Lift box up so rods engage the corresponding holes on the gearbox
    Then just slide the box along the rods to engage input shaft splines

    Secure a few bolts, tighten, pull out rods, 20 minutes

    Method works just as well for removal

  24. #24
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Boonah Qld
    Posts
    2,636

    Default

    Well removed gearbox again and after a lot of measuring put a 3 mm chamfer on the end of the shaft. Gear box back in still no go. Gearbox out recheck the clutch plate etc still ok. This time I will put the gearbox on a slight slope to the rear and loosen the engine mount bolts and jack up the engine at the front so the bell housing slope matches the engine. It must go in as it came out. I almost thought about giving up and parking the car up the back. All this just to replace a $10 seal. All this pushing a shoving and the new seal will probably leak now.

  25. #25
    1000+ Posts Shoji's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Mandurah WA
    Posts
    1,193

    Default

    Gees Rob, your having a hell of a time with this job. I wish I was there to help in some way. Hope you have some luck from here on.

    Sent from my Moto G Play using aussiefrogs mobile app
    “Listen very carefully, I shall say this only once.” Cheers. John

Page 1 of 2 12 Last

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •