Clutch Options 215mm 807 motor with 395 G/Box
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Thread: Clutch Options 215mm 807 motor with 395 G/Box

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! Virage Racer's Avatar
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    Default Clutch Options 215mm 807 motor with 395 G/Box

    Hi All

    My 12 track car has always had a hero clutch which was basically on/off and required a lot of strength to depress (firewall flexes under load and clevis becomes elongated with wear at the pedal pin. I always assumed it was a competition item of some description. More recently it has developed really violent shudder and has become a real pain in traffic.

    Now that I've removed it, I see the flywheel has been modified to take a 215mm clutch rather than the standard 200mm. Step is about 0.5mm. Wear doesn't look too bad, but some interesting non-radial cracks/grooving across the face of the coverplate. I'm hoping someone can identify what clutch this is from the attached pictures - the cover plate is stamped Valeo but no further information.

    What I'm looking for is more driveability in traffic - the car does very few motorsport events now. I had thought of installing a standard flywheel and the standard 16 200mm clutch, but now I am wondering if I can get a compromise solution by fitting a 215mm road clutch (from a 20TS or similar?) which offers more contact area and reasonable pedal effort.

    Advice welcomed. I note also that the workshop manual warns against machining 807 flywheels - is that advice to be heeded?

    Thanks
    KeithFlywheel_wide.JPGFlywheel_CU.JPGCover_wide.JPGCover_cracks.JPGDriven Plate.JPGDriven_Plate_Clutch_Side.JPGDriven_Plate_side.JPG

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    COL
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    Hi Virage Racer

    What I think you have there is a Fuego 2 litre clutch, the book here says they are 215mm dia.

    The reason why I think your clutch is so heavy is because most likely that the leverages on the various parts such as pedal and clutch actuator are not correct for that pressure plate, that's assuming everything moves freely.

    I would do a little home work and see what a 2 litre Feugo leverage ratios are compared with what you are using.

    I have noticed that the clutch actuator lever on a 395 transaxle is longer that it is on the earlier transaxles, so you mabe able fix the heavy clutch problem by changing that. My worth
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    Don’t know about machining. 17g and 12 g used a 215mm clutch. Have a vague recollection that you could use a fuego friction plate with a 504 cover plate. (Can’t remember but I should cause I’ll have to buy one soon). The g flywheel also had a dowel to locate it to crank, that yours doesn’t have.

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    It looks like he has the 395 in already Col, though not clear if it is an early or late box/clutch setup.

    I thought about that swap, but changing leveraging points will change the pedal travel as well. Not sure the pedal would have where to go.

    Now that the flywheel is grooved and cracked, it needs a re-machining anyway, so I would look at reverting back to a 17/17G clutch especially if competition is not the primary use anymore.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 11th January 2020 at 03:21 PM.
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    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Hi,

    I do not know enough about Virages and their clutch mechanisms but according to me, that should not be an on/off competition clutch. The feel should be like a standard car. It doesn't look like the pressure plate nor the clutch plate is a competition component. The on/off action would be typically that of a button clutch with no internal "give" springs in the friction plate like the one in the photo.

    I would agree with Col about the total leverage from the top of the pedal right through to the thrust.

    Put a standard 16 clutch back like SZ suggested because I found that it is good enough to handle 180+ hp on the A110. That was doing around 800km of special stages.

    Frans.
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    Fellow Frogger! Virage Racer's Avatar
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    Thanks all

    Some wise counsel here - it makes sense that leverage would be the issue. Col/Schlitzhaugen, the clutch actuating lever on both of my 395 boxes is 125mm in total length (not sure if early or late boxes). Angru - yes Mecaparts sell a 215mm road clutch for the 12 Gordini which looks very much like the one I have in their images, not sure if the pedal mechanism is different on the 12G.

    Frans, yep certainly not a ceramic button clutch, perhaps has been warped from the time I took the car on. Thanks for that competition testimonial on the standard 16 clutch - I think that's the way I'll go. Have a spare flywheel with a nice looking contact face, but would love to know why the workshop manual claims 807 flywheels can't be machined and need to be replaced.

    Best, Keith
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    COL
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virage Racer View Post
    Thanks all

    Some wise counsel here - it makes sense that leverage would be the issue. Col/Schlitzhaugen, the clutch actuating lever on both of my 395 boxes is 125mm in total length (not sure if early or late boxes). Angru - yes Mecaparts sell a 215mm road clutch for the 12 Gordini which looks very much like the one I have in their images, not sure if the pedal mechanism is different on the 12G.

    Frans, yep certainly not a ceramic button clutch, perhaps has been warped from the time I took the car on. Thanks for that competition testimonial on the standard 16 clutch - I think that's the way I'll go. Have a spare flywheel with a nice looking contact face, but would love to know why the workshop manual claims 807 flywheels can't be machined and need to be replaced.

    Best, Keith
    I have just measured the clutch actuation lever on a 395 transaxle that came out of a R18 and it measures 140mm from where the cable attaches to the centre of the pivot point.

    I have machined 807 flywheels before with no ill effects, both refaced and also lightened. It may just be a caveat if something goes wrong when someone lightens them by a silly amount.
    Regards Col

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    Fellow Frogger! Virage Racer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by COL View Post
    I have just measured the clutch actuation lever on a 395 transaxle that came out of a R18 and it measures 140mm from where the cable attaches to the centre of the pivot point.

    I have machined 807 flywheels before with no ill effects, both refaced and also lightened. It may just be a caveat if something goes wrong when someone lightens them by a silly amount.
    Cheers Col - that is a bit of a difference in length! Mine will certainly be less than 125mm from cable to pivot point centre. Agree on machining, was pretty sure others before me would have had them to the machine shop.

    Keith
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    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    I have had no problems with machining and lightening the original 807 flywheel, and have even fitted a 235mm clutch to one, but needed to cut a away a bit of the bellhousing to have it fit. No problems with heaviness, and have had no worries with solid centre or button clutch plates. Although none of the clutches were with a 395 gearbox.
    Last edited by alan moore; 12th January 2020 at 03:00 PM.
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    If it is machined with common sense and you take into consideration where the strength is needed, normally at the back because the pressure is applied on the press plate outer circle, so from where it is mounted to where the flywheel mounts to the crank should be in a reasonable taper or steps. Then the rest can be machined away.

    I believe in "no" flywheel or almost no flywheel. The story that a car is undrivable because of a too light flywheel is BS. I don't think a steel flywheel can be machined so light that the above statement can be made. A F1 has no flywheel and is fast, a bike has no flywheel and is fast, so I say cut it.

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Yeah, but bikes, race or F1 cars don't idle at 750RPM or some such. At the other extreme a container ship going at a steady 60RPM has a flywheel exactly because of that. The flywheel is a very simple energy saving device, necessary for an engine that doesn't have the torque curve of an electric motor, which doesn't have a flywheel exactly because it has max torque at very low revs, in fact at zero revs. You don't have that in a car with an IC engine. Sure, if you change your torque curve and keep the car in the max torque band at all times you won't need a flywheel, but you might find it hard to laterally park at 5000RPM unless you are this guy:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3BGkOKVMUU.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

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    COL
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    Yeah, but bikes, race or F1 cars don't idle at 750RPM or some such. At the other extreme a container ship going at a steady 60RPM has a flywheel exactly because of that. The flywheel is a very simple energy saving device, necessary for an engine that doesn't have the torque curve of an electric motor, which doesn't have a flywheel exactly because it has max torque at very low revs, in fact at zero revs. You don't have that in a car with an IC engine. Sure, if you change your torque curve and keep the car in the max torque band at all times you won't need a flywheel, but you might find it hard to laterally park at 5000RPM unless you are this guy:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3BGkOKVMUU.
    The reason why some race cars do not have a flywheel is so that they accelerate instantly, there is no flywheel mass to slow down the acceleration (less moment of inertia).

    The flywheels job is to smooth out the power pulses at lower revs, and just happens to be a good place to put the ring gear so a starter motor can be fitted for easy starting.
    Regards Col

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Yeah, but that's for cars that need to rev instantly to reach max torque to take off and then go flat out for as long as the race lasts. I don't think this is the case with our friend here.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Virage Racer View Post
    Hi All

    My 12 track car has [/ATTACH]
    Yes to all but as above.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virage Racer View Post
    Hi All

    My 12 track car has always had a hero clutch which was basically on/off and required a lot of strength to depress (firewall flexes under load and clevis becomes elongated with wear at the pedal pin. I always assumed it was a competition item of some description. More recently it has developed really violent shudder and has become a real pain in traffic.

    -------

    What I'm looking for is more driveability in traffic - the car does very few motorsport events now. I had thought of installing a standard flywheel and the standard 16 200mm clutch, but now I am wondering if I can get a compromise solution by fitting a 215mm road clutch (from a 20TS or similar?) which offers more contact area and reasonable pedal effort.

    Advice welcomed. I note also that the workshop manual warns against machining 807 flywheels - is that advice to be heeded?
    Thanks
    Keith
    Hi Keith
    I know nuffing about 12s specifically so will not comment as there has been plenty of good stuff so far.
    In past years we have machined Renault flywheels that it was forbidden to machine, and had good success with fitting just ordinary larger B&D clutches and pressure plates for "heavy' use. No problem with drivability either on the street. Rivet the correct Renault plate splined boss onto the other plate or make a new plate out of a saw blade and rivet the lining on to it.

    But my comments were about the matching of the lever ratios.I was asked to look at a couple of other makes where an engine swap had been done, where a Holden 6 had been put in with a different brand gearbox. The clutches were very heavy and just felt 'on-off' to engage. Great for spinning the wheels but impossible to drive normally. I looked into the ratios of the pedal and the clutch arm and saw a great discrepency with the original overall ratio. So in both cases I drilled another hole in the pedal closer to the pivot as I could get where the mechanism would work OK. Worked magic and transformed them to normal clutches. The owners were
    'stoked'.
    So my suggestion would be to look at the clutch arm length as some have suggested and see if that is a solution, even lengthen the outer end of the lever you have. Or look at moving the cable attachment at the pedal towards the pivot, as a last resort if necessary. I have dodgey hips so have redrilled a couple of pedals anyway to lighten a clutch in the past. Now I just drive autos
    Good luck Jaahn
    Last edited by jaahn; 13th January 2020 at 10:51 AM.

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