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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts J-man's Avatar
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    Default 4CV widies

    While I've had some time off this month, I had a bit of a tinker with Brian the 4CV.

    What I don't understand is why my R10 widies stick out the front guards so far, when some 4CV's seem to have widies within the front guards?

    Obviously my rims have significant dish, which doesn't help, but even standard R10 rims are right out to the edge of the front guards on my car. It has a R10 front end in it, but that's nothing unusual.

    They're 175/65R14 on 5" rims.

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    cheers,

    John

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    1000+ Posts geckoeng's Avatar
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    John's 4CV has king pin front end with R10S discs and calipers.(All round)

    Ray
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    Think Old, But Run Modern !!

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts J-man's Avatar
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    Thanks Ray, so guessing that means the R10 front end is wider?
    Quote Originally Posted by geckoeng View Post
    John's 4CV has king pin front end with R10S discs and calipers.(All round)

    Ray
    cheers,

    John

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    The R10 front end is certainly wider. I have 15 x 6” wheels on my 4cv on a king pin front end, but I shortened the arm about 8mm that the tie rod connects to so that it was inside the rim allowing the wheel to be inset further. My car has 4 wheel R10 discs also.

    The 4 cv has a tapered section on this arm where it connects into the hub assembly, so I just ran this back on the lathe. There is a key to locate this arm. I run 195/50/15 tyres that run well inside the guards. If getting the wheels made again I would probably offset mine another 8 mm outward. I can give you my wheel info but it won’t be right for your car with the R10 front.
    Last edited by alan moore; 29th November 2019 at 07:56 AM.
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    1000+ Posts J-man's Avatar
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    Thanks Alan, much appreciated. My car is a long way off seeing the road with my situation but planning is something I can do plenty of.

    I was hoping to end up with your tyre/rim size combination in the end but putting the widies off Clive the R10 highlighted the track issue.
    cheers,

    John

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    Tadpole
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    Hi J-man, the wheels on our car (pictured in your initial post) are 5.5 outers on 16 centers. Inside offset is the same as 10s rims with the extra inch on the outside of the rim. Tyres are 175/70 14 Continentals. Everything clears and the car feels really good on the road.
    Hope this is helpful.
    Regards Clint

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts J-man's Avatar
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    Hi Clint,

    Thank you for that. Your car is fabulous by the way
    cheers,

    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by J-man View Post
    Hi Clint, Thank you for that. Your car is fabulous by the way
    It is indeed! Very nicely done. I didn't realise how Alan had shortened his tie-rod arms - clever approach and very sound. I'd like some of those skills...
    JohnW

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    My beastie has an R10 front end (R10 crossmember with 4CV longitudinal chassis rails cut, shut & reinforced to receive it) & 4.5x14 front wheels. Wheels are standard offset, so .25" in & .25" out. plus a couple of mms extra offset in virtue of a reinforcing ring for the cut-down R10 centres. Tyres are 165/70 PC2 Contis.

    So, compared to some others here, a very conservative front end. The vehicle itself was sufficiently modified to require departmental approval, engineer's certificate & so on.

    The engineer baulked at the protrusion of even such a conservative wheel/tyre modification beyond the 4CV guards & they ended up flared (which I at least rather prefer to the original).

    cheers! Peter
    Last edited by 4cvg; 1st December 2019 at 04:38 PM.

  10. #10
    1000+ Posts J-man's Avatar
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    Your 4CV was one of the cars I was trying to find a picture of to see how yours looked with its widies Peter. I think you put photos of your 4CV in the 4CV thread from memory but I hadn't spent much time looking for it.
    cheers,

    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by J-man View Post
    Your 4CV was one of the cars I was trying to find a picture of to see how yours looked with its widies Peter. I think you put photos of your 4CV in the 4CV thread from memory but I hadn't spent much time looking for it.
    Yeah; we'll see if my attachment attempt works below.

    Attachment 117461

    4CV widies-car-750_21.jpg

  12. #12
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Nice photo Peter. Such a pain trying to post here... If I click on the photo it opens. If I click on the text hyperlink I get an "invalid attachment message".

    Anway, it's up, regardless of the contradiction!
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1950 (R1062)
    Renault R8 1965 (R1130)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2006 (daughter's)
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    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980 (moved on to new custodian)

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  13. #13
    1000+ Posts J-man's Avatar
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    Thanks Peter.

    Did you add metal to your front guards or are they just the original guards reworked, and very well I might add.

    There's a lot of different interpretations of 4CV front guard flaring. Yours looks nice and subtle.

    Are the rear guards touched?
    cheers,

    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by J-man View Post
    Thanks Peter.

    Did you add metal to your front guards or are they just the original guards reworked, and very well I might add.

    There's a lot of different interpretations of 4CV front guard flaring. Yours looks nice and subtle.

    Are the rear guards touched?
    New metal (+ smoothing bog) at front. Rears had a widening strip inserted (rear wheels are 5.5 with 185/60 & rather more offset - I favour a size difference of around 20 mm front/rear).
    The work was done by the engineer who signed off on it (as was the roll hoop cum half-cage, front fuel tank & rear bracing bars).

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    Nice photo Peter. Such a pain trying to post here... If I click on the photo it opens. If I click on the text hyperlink I get an "invalid attachment message".

    Anway, it's up, regardless of the contradiction!
    Luckily it's an old photo which was already in AF's store so I only had to drag it down to the insertion row. I have no idea how to work around the new protocols (there was a discussion thread on this but . . . ).

    Still, mustn't grumble. AF is a nice institution & I am grateful to whoever has organised &/or funded it.

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts J-man's Avatar
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    Have any of you successfully reduced the front positive camber or even provided negative camber on the R10 front ends? Using the spirit level vertically against my front wheel, I could bring the top of the wheel in a good 10mm and only giving it slight negative camber in the process, which would reduce the guard flaring necessity slightly, plus a reduction in tyre width on the front tyres would bring it in another 5mm.

    I can't see an easy way of bringing the top arm in though. I assume the cross-member has a tube insert for the upper control arm inner mounting bolts? which would make re-drilling the mounting further inboard a problem I've also read about relocating the ball joint inboard, but looking at it, doesn't look like a simple process either. Cut and shut of the arm would be a peace of cake, however illegal and not recommended.
    cheers,

    John

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    From what I remember of the R10 front end, you can slot the lower wishbone mounting points on the cross member outwards , or weld them up completely and re-drill the holes. An 8mm slot would probably give you maybe a degree of negative camber.
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  18. #18
    1000+ Posts J-man's Avatar
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    Thanks Alan, part of the reasoning for the exercise though is to reduce the size of the wheel arch flare I'd need to keep the Gendarme at bay and I'm not so keen on large wheel arch flares.
    cheers,

    John

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    Pushing the lower arm out 8mm, may well give you 16mm inward at the top of the tyre. I have around 2 degrees negative camber on the front, and possibly the same on the rear of my 4CV.
    '56 Renault 4CV (16TS Power)
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  20. #20
    1000+ Posts J-man's Avatar
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    That sounds like a plan Alan
    No issues with achieving correct toe after your mods? Actually, with the tie rod end sitting around midway on the stub, I'm guessing that might not be an issue.
    I might have a tinker with the lower arm mounts and take some measurements before and aft.
    cheers,

    John

  21. #21
    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    I have some aftermarket adjustable tierods that have a ball joint inner that are made to fit A110s on my 4CV. I did shorten it a little, but can’t remember how much. It is like a modern tierod and adjusts in the middle.
    '56 Renault 4CV (16TS Power)
    '62 Renault Dauphine Gordini
    '82 Renault Fuego GTX
    '89 Renault Alpine GTA V6 Turbo
    '02 and '03 Renault Clios 1.4L
    '13 Renault Megane RS265 Trophee+

  22. #22
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan moore View Post
    I have some aftermarket adjustable tierods that have a ball joint inner that are made to fit A110s on my 4CV. I did shorten it a little, but can’t remember how much. It is like a modern tierod and adjusts in the middle.
    They are also available for the 4CV these days. Look good but I have spare near-new ones and new ones on the car, so they'll last way longer than I do!

    I have a pair of the easily-adjustable R8 ones too, in a box. So much better than having to pop the ball joint to adjust toe-in, although I guess popping the ball joint tapers more often does help reduce seizure!

    Cheers
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1950 (R1062)
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    Renault Scenic Series II 2005 (wife's)
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  23. #23
    COL
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan moore View Post
    I have some aftermarket adjustable tierods that have a ball joint inner that are made to fit A110s on my 4CV. I did shorten it a little, but canít remember how much. It is like a modern tierod and adjusts in the middle.
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    They are also available for the 4CV these days. Look good but I have spare near-new ones and new ones on the car, so they'll last way longer than I do!

    I have a pair of the easily-adjustable R8 ones too, in a box. So much better than having to pop the ball joint to adjust toe-in, although I guess popping the ball joint tapers more often does help reduce seizure!

    Cheers
    I think the ones that Alan & John have are from the R5 but may pay to check before purchase because I have been known to be wrong before.

    They are also available from the usual European suppliers.
    Regards Col

    1973 Renault R12 Station Wagon
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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by COL View Post
    I think the ones that Alan & John have are from the R5 but may pay to check before purchase because I have been known to be wrong before. They are also available from the usual European suppliers.
    http://bretagneautoretro.fr/crbst_79.html for early 4CVs and similar ones with larger tapered pins for the later cars
    http://bretagneautoretro.fr/crbst_175.html for R8.

    I presume they aren't R5 but I've not seen an R5 front end up close and personal!
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1950 (R1062)
    Renault R8 1965 (R1130)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2006 (daughter's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2007 (mine)

    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980 (moved on to new custodian)

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  25. #25
    COL
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    http://bretagneautoretro.fr/crbst_79.html for early 4CVs and similar ones with larger tapered pins for the later cars
    http://bretagneautoretro.fr/crbst_175.html for R8.

    I presume they aren't R5 but I've not seen an R5 front end up close and personal!
    Hi John

    Your second link is what I have in my Alpine A110

    https://www.ebay.ie/itm/Renault-5-MK...-/223485147917

    https://www.ebay.ie/itm/Track-Tie-Ro...-/142403970270

    Looks like the 4CV is slightly different, like I said have known to be wrong.
    Regards Col

    1973 Renault R12 Station Wagon
    1976 Renault R12 Station Wagon
    2002 Renault Laguna V6
    1973 Alpine A110

    http://alpine-a110.weebly.com/

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