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  1. #26
    COL
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan moore View Post
    Certainly the 80w90 I have seen cause synchros to not work well in Renault boxes, particularly in Fuegos. I used Castrol VMX80 for many years, often with a dose of the Nulon gearbox additive. I have seen Fuego gearboxes improve their synchros once the 80w90 is removed and replaced with VMX80, but I do believe the damage is often done. Suggest you change yours out.
    Its interesting to see that on the Castrol website they recommend CASTROL SYNTRAX UNIVERSAL PLUS 75W-90 for the Renault Feugo, not sure what Renault changed in the NG series transaxles to its previous versions.

    Castrol also recommend CASTROL SYNTRAX UNIVERSAL PLUS 75W-90 for the R18GTS that has the 395 transaxle

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    CASTROL SYNTRAX UNIVERSAL PLUS 75W-90
    Fully synthetic automotive gear oil, recommended for vehicles with manual transaxles that combine gearbox and hypoid differentials; eg. Toyota Celica 4WD, Subaru, Porsche and Alfa Romeo. Recommended for use in manual transmission where 75W-90 GL-4 or 5 lubricants are recommended. Suitable for rear exles of light cars and secondary drive axles of 4WD vehicles for reduced viscous drag and enhanced fuel efficiency, especially for around town service.
    Regards Col

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  2. #27
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    Penrite also recommend their 75 - 80 or similar and I can tell you it doesn't work in my R17TS. Eventually the syncros will stop working. been there done that. Bought a Fugeo cheaply because the syncro was not working. Took it to a well known Brisbane Renault garage and was told. Drain oil and put in Castrol VMX 80 and within 150 kilometres syncro will be fine. Or I will take the gearbox out, wash out the wrong oil and replace it with Castrol VMX and charge $800. Please yourself. I changed it and after 150 kilometres it was changing just fine.
    COL, JohnW and driven like this.

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    An update & an expansion of a comment in the initial post; the latter first:

    A few years ago I used a Penrite multigrade (as recommended by the local distributor - who's not a fool & not a crook & primarily runs a mechanical engineering works). Seemed ok but come oil change time (usually every 10k Km but 5k when trying new oil), it had "gold" dust in the oil. Obviously the synchro rings were being attacked. Went back to my Penrite guy & was told that the oil was replaced by another one.

    I read the bottle & it said in 3 separate places that it wouldn't attack brass. It sounded awfully like Penrite had realised that it had stuffed up & was trying to reassure irritated but not yet litigious customers. Anyway, I got it & was happy with it. Then it, too, got replaced & the new one was much less emphatic about brass safety. I decided that I didn't trust Penrite on its vague assurances & decided not to buy.

    So, I switched to Castrol VMX 80. I now consider this to be a major error. Two vehicles (4CVG - 330 transaxle & Djet - Estafette transaxle with bespoke diff.) became noisy &, upon draining, had "silver" dust in the oil.

    Each has now had that oil replaced by Castrol Classic EP 8OW. The 4CVG noise is dramatically reduced & the Djet less so but improved. Hopefully in each case the case hardening is not too eroded.

    I'll drain again next service & examine oil state but my current appraisal is that VMX80 is rubbish which is unsuited to the high pressure loads of the diff.

    The R8 is the most practical & thus most used of the 4 toys & has shown no symptoms. I can't recall what's in it but, anyway, it'll also switch to EP80W tomorrow.

    My current plan is to further investigate the EP merits of the Redline oil mentioned by Alan & consider it for the Djet. I'll also discuss options with my Fuchs guy when I see him tomorrow. It might be that I switch to one or other of these instead of staying with the EP80W. It I stay with the latter, I'll get a 20 litre drum.

    More later.

    cheers! Peter

  4. #29
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Hi,

    In 1990 I had a petrol garage and workshop and I was invited to a lube seminar by an independent laboratory. The speaker wrote an article in some International Car Magazine and the results of the tests were published by name brands. These test were done in controlled conditions and I think tops in the comparison was Royal Purple (not sure). However, 2nd last from a list of about 10 or 12 oils that were tested, Castrol came in 2nd last.

    An explanation at the time was that Castrol did not have their own oil wells or refineries and that they bought bulk from the cheapest supplier at the time. Additives and colouring might have been added but their marketing was by far the best of all the oil companies and therefor they were so well known as a good oil. Because of this story I have never bought Castrol or will never buy it.

    I am not sure if the same is still valid 30 years on but typical human, I was convinced about that story and it made a lot of sense at the time, so Castrol is a no-no for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4cvg View Post
    An update & an expansion of a comment in the initial post; the latter first:
    A few years ago I used a Penrite multigrade (as recommended by the local distributor - who's not a fool & not a crook & primarily runs a mechanical engineering works). Seemed ok but come oil change time (usually every 10k Km but 5k when trying new oil), it had "gold" dust in the oil. Obviously the synchro rings were being attacked. Went back to my Penrite guy & was told that the oil was replaced by another one. More later. cheers! Peter
    It's between intrigue and horror Peter! Lucky you took the precaution of an early gearbox oil change, especially for the Djet with the unique bits. Good luck and I'm sure quite a few of us will follow the "more later" with interest. Frans' comment adds a new and quite unexpected perspective too!


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    JohnW

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    When I lived in Durban, South Africa, my house was in an elevated position from there I could see the MOBIL trucks delivering oil to the CASTROL facility on a daily basis, where they added their "liquid tungsten' and other additives, and then re-packaged the oil in CASTROL cans/drums for distribution.
    I have used only Castrol engine oil since 1969, and despite thrashing my early R10s, I have never run a bearing. I still use their GTX today. This does not mean that it is better, and I personally believe that any make of the same specification would have probably performed just as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan moore View Post
    As John has stated, I use Redline Lightweight Shockproof in many of my gearboxes and transaxles, and in particular in my track driven BMW 2002 it reduced the gearbox temp by 30 degrees C, suggesting a reduction in friction. In a friends GTA turbo Alpine the synchros became so much better after changing to this oil. No I donít think it will fix broken gearboxes, but I will keep using the ďSmurf bloodĒ. Approx $110 for 4 quarts online.
    Any comment on the "GL5 means brass death" point in relation to the Redline oil (I don't know if it's GL4 or 5 or what)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4cvg View Post
    Any comment on the "GL5 means brass death" point in relation to the Redline oil (I don't know if it's GL4 or 5 or what)?
    I've NO idea but am interested in the answer....
    JohnW

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    Can't find any information regarding API GL ratings on this oil. So maybe it does not have one.

    My local dealer also sell the Redline MTL75w80 oil. There you have all the normal recommendations regarding GL4 oil and synchrorings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by R8RX View Post
    Can't find any information regarding API GL ratings on this oil. So maybe it does not have one.

    My local dealer also sell the Redline MTL75w80 oil. There you have all the normal recommendations regarding GL4 oil and synchrorings.
    yep; mind you, the mtl range doesn't suit diffs

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    I've NO idea but am interested in the answer....
    It might be that an alternative route to knowledge on the key issue (brass-friendliness) is simple empirical experience. If you or Alan (or anyone) has used the Redline oil in, say, a 330 box & has had the wit to examine the drained oil for "gold dust", then 'none detected' would count as adequate assurance.

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    I have Redline in my R17TS and am due to drop the box out in a month. They have exactly the same problems as 330 boxes. It didn't make any difference to the diff whine. I'll go back to VMX 80 I have never had issues with it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4cvg View Post
    yep; mind you, the mtl range doesn't suit diffs
    Thank you for noticing Thought I saw something about transaxles, but was very wrong there.

    I am very tempted to try the Shockproof oil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunroof View Post
    I have Redline in my R17TS and am due to drop the box out in a month. They have exactly the same problems as 330 boxes. It didn't make any difference to the diff whine. I'll go back to VMX 80 I have never had issues with it.
    Hi Rob,

    Do you mean the Redline oil has given synchro problems? I've had it in my 330 for years now and if anything the gear change improved.

    There's something inconsistent in the collective reports but I can't quite put my finger on it. I'd better read the whole thread again....

    Cheers
    JohnW

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    No Redline never gave syncro problems that I have yet to discover, but neither does VMX 80 and why pay such a high price for oil when the much cheaper Castrol does the same job? The diff whine is there regardless of the oil used. So I will pull out the gear box, change all the oil seals, that are leaking expensive Redline everywhere, and adjust the diff to hopefully get rid of the whine. The only problem with Redline for every day use is the cost for what I see as no gain. Perhaps the expensive is justified for competition use as Alan has explained.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunroof View Post
    No Redline never gave syncro problems that I have yet to discover, but neither does VMX 80 and why pay such a high price for oil when the much cheaper Castrol does the same job? The diff whine is there regardless of the oil used. So I will pull out the gear box, change all the oil seals, that are leaking expensive Redline everywhere, and adjust the diff to hopefully get rid of the whine. The only problem with Redline for every day use is the cost for what I see as no gain. Perhaps the expensive is justified for competition use as Alan has explained.
    Re synchros, that's what I thought too. Fair enough re the cost! I'm leak free and change every 6 years or so (maybe 30,000 km, most these years seeming to be cross-Australia trips!!) so the cost per km is small. You've reminded me of the pain of changing that selector rod seal with the gearbox in place and no hoist...… Thanks for the reply.
    JohnW

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    Hi All,
    I don't have a recommendation but I was interested in what redline recommend re 1970 renault 10 transaxle.
    reply came back....
    Rob,


    Thank you for contacting Red Line Oil, in your Renault transaxle where an EP gear oil is called for the 75W90NS would be recommended.
    Our EP/GL-5 gear oils contain a copper deactivator so are safe with any brass, bronze or copper components.


    This appears to be available at super cheap for $142 per 4 and a half litres.
    Cheers
    rob
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    "4 and a half litres" being one Imperial gallon...
    JohnW

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunroof View Post
    No Redline never gave syncro problems that I have yet to discover, but neither does VMX 80 and why pay such a high price for oil when the much cheaper Castrol does the same job? The diff whine is there regardless of the oil used. So I will pull out the gear box, change all the oil seals, that are leaking expensive Redline everywhere, and adjust the diff to hopefully get rid of the whine. The only problem with Redline for every day use is the cost for what I see as no gain. Perhaps the expensive is justified for competition use as Alan has explained.
    Does the same job?

    Um, in both my 330 R10 transaxle & in my Renault Estafette based Djet transaxle, my situation went from no problems to mechanical abrasion & steel dust in the oil within a short time. VMX 80 caused a problem in each case. Redline might not fix it but it might plausibly stabilise the situation (although Castrol Classic EP 80W has noticeably cured audible symptoms in the 330 box).

    I'd stop using VMX 80 unless you want the problem to get worse.

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    The following link seems to explain the situation: https://www.widman.biz/uploads/Transaxle_oil.pdf
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    Hmmmm. Food for thought. Or should that be "oil for thought".

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    Speaking of food.

    Appears no one has tried the EP 80 Banana Skins yet?



    I just wanted use the banana emoji

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    Quote Originally Posted by harrisonati View Post
    The following link seems to explain the situation: https://www.widman.biz/uploads/Transaxle_oil.pdf
    Excellent article that actually explains the situation properly!! Many thanks Mr Harrison....
    JohnW

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4cvg View Post
    Does the same job?

    Um, in both my 330 R10 transaxle & in my Renault Estafette based Djet transaxle, my situation went from no problems to mechanical abrasion & steel dust in the oil within a short time. VMX 80 caused a problem in each case. Redline might not fix it but it might plausibly stabilise the situation (although Castrol Classic EP 80W has noticeably cured audible symptoms in the 330 box).

    I'd stop using VMX 80 unless you want the problem to get worse.
    Hi Peter

    Just out of interest what oil was you using in your transaxles before you use VMX80?
    Regards Col

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  25. #50
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    I have been using the Redline Lightweight Shockproof in various gearboxes and diffs. Generally Redline recommend this oil for dog type gearboxes and moderately loaded diffs. After speaking to some drivers maybe 15 years ago ( I was a Scrutineer for many years) using their cars on the track, many being dedicated race cars that had normal type synchro boxes, and a couple of dog boxes, I found many were using the Lightweight Shockproof.

    None were sponsored by Redline, but they continued to use the oil even given the expense, and I expect if there were failures because of the oil the word would have gotten around. Certainly Redline are not recommending or dismissing its use synchro boxes, but would recommend one of their MTL series oils for our use in transaxles.

    Given I have been using this oil for about 15 years in various 318, 330 and UN1 gearboxes seemingly with no problems, I think it works well, although second gear synchro in the 4CV is a bit slow, but it was slow from the beginning on the VMX80 as it was built from the best of second hand parts.

    I have not seen any great amount of metal particles after draining, but admit given the colouration of the oil the particles would be hard to pick. The oil really clings to the gears. I had a gear failure in a 1970 Triumph Bonneville (dog type) box that I had rebuilt. The gear had been the only new one I had fitted to the box and had been over hardened and so the teeth were brittle. I had drained the box and found the broken gear, leaving it all assembled. I was sour about the gear failure, and left the bike for three years for it to consider what it had done. Three years later the "Smurf Blood" was still clinging to and protecting the gears. It doesn't wash out easily.

    I will continue to use the oil as I have no reason to change, but please don't take this as an endorsement, given its use in our transaxles is not generally supported by Redline.
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