Oil pressure Ren 807 motor
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    1000+ Posts Shoji's Avatar
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    Default Oil pressure Ren 807 motor

    Anyone shed some light on how long from a cold start the Renault 807 motor oil pressure takes to rise. I'm asking because when I start my engine it seems a little long. Heaps of tappet noise until it pumps oil up to the head which can take some seconds. I've been cautious by turning over the engine without pumping the gas and waiting for the oil light to go out. Then I find it's ok to start but it takes some time cranking over with this method. Oh and it's a modified sump with baffles. Oil pump shite?

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    It could be a multitude of issues, is it a motor that has been recently rebuilt? It should go quiet fairly quickly.

    1) What oil is being used? Being an old relatively large clearance motor, where the rockers and shafts may be worn, using a thin modern oil could take time to get to the top end.

    2) If rebuilt, what head gasket has been used, does the head require re-tensioning and the tappets reset. Do the tappets require frequent resetting, the case hardening on the rockers or tappets could be worn.

    3) What is the state of the motor, the pump could be worn. Have you checked the pressure with an accurate gauge to see if it takes time to pump up, or if the pressure is low at idle.

    4) What type of filter is being used? It could be draining back, and the 15/16/17 pump can sometimes require priming if left for some time.

    5) Have you checked the pressure with an accurate gauge to see if it takes time to pump up, or if the pressure is low at idle.

    What else has been done to the motor recently that may have caused your problem, especially if it has come on suddenly.
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    In answer to your question, the oil pressure registers on all my 807's virtually the instant they fire. The Lotus 2.1 Litre runs a high volume pump, the other two are basically 12G specs running a standard pump. Two have baffled sumps, one has a standard sump.
    If they have run previously even if they have sat in the shed for a month or more there is oil sloshing around in the top of the head so there is never any unusual tappet noise. They all run oil coolers. Two have electric senders and one mechanical sender. One VDO and two smiths. All are consistent.

    As Simon has mentioned above, there are many issues to look at and he has provided a good list for you to start with.
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    Something EZ to check & should always be done on any engine in cases like this is:
    check the oil for fuel dilution.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shoji View Post
    Anyone shed some light on how long from a cold start the Renault 807 motor oil pressure takes to rise. I'm asking because when I start my engine it seems a little long. Heaps of tappet noise until it pumps oil up to the head which can take some seconds. I've been cautious by turning over the engine without pumping the gas and waiting for the oil light to go out. Then I find it's ok to start but it takes some time cranking over with this method. Oh and it's a modified sump with baffles. Oil pump shite?
    Do you have an oil pressure gauge fitted? What oil are you using? Hmm....
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    The 807 motor in my R12 if left to sit for months takes a few seconds to get oil up to the top of the motor, but if started regularly pumps up straight away.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post
    It could be a multitude of issues, is it a motor that has been recently rebuilt? It should go quiet fairly quickly.

    1) What oil is being used? Being an old relatively large clearance motor, where the rockers and shafts may be worn, using a thin modern oil could take time to get to the top end.

    2) If rebuilt, what head gasket has been used, does the head require re-tensioning and the tappets reset. Do the tappets require frequent resetting, the case hardening on the rockers or tappets could be worn.

    3) What is the state of the motor, the pump could be worn. Have you checked the pressure with an accurate gauge to see if it takes time to pump up, or if the pressure is low at idle.

    4) What type of filter is being used? It could be draining back, and the 15/16/17 pump can sometimes require priming if left for some time.

    5) Have you checked the pressure with an accurate gauge to see if it takes time to pump up, or if the pressure is low at idle.

    What else has been done to the motor recently that may have caused your problem, especially if it has come on suddenly.
    Simon, FYI (and I hope John doesn't mind me replying)....it's a newly(ish) built 16TS engine, finished in the second half of last year...professionally built with all the necessary new parts and it has a (custom) baffled sump.
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    Hi,
    Following the oil channels there is no non-return valve anywhere in the engine except the close clearances that creates an automatic delayed backflow. The only non-return valve is in the oil filter. Do you have an oil filter on there that has a non-return valve?

    I think the variations or options in filters are 1) non- return valve and 2) a by-pass if it gets blocked. I think the differences lies only in price. The cheapies has nothing and the expensive has more features. I can be wrong though because it might be for special cars?

    If the oil filter is the correct one then I'm afraid there might be unusual large clearances and that will cause a low oil pressure as well.
    I don't know how the baffles were done or who did them but that won't be the problem if it is from startup.

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    Young enough to do it anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nauli View Post
    Simon, FYI (and I hope John doesn't mind me replying)....it's a newly(ish) built 16TS engine, finished in the second half of last year...professionally built with all the necessary new parts and it has a (custom) baffled sump.
    So, he's broken it already
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    I would first check the oil pressure at engine normal operating temperature because that can tell immediately if all is well with the oil pressure and can help avoid further more serious damage. Use a quality reliable oil pressure gauge plugged in the dash sender hole. If pressure is low, the primary suspect is the pump, so I would check that next. If pump checks out, your clearances are out of whack for whatever reason (main journal and big end should be checked first). At that point, I think you might need a sit down and talk with your engine builder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nauli View Post
    Simon, FYI (and I hope John doesn't mind me replying)....it's a newly(ish) built 16TS engine, finished in the second half of last year...professionally built with all the necessary new parts and it has a (custom) baffled sump.
    If it is professionally rebuilt, I'd suggest going back to the rebuilder for their advice. Anything that is done on the basis of advice from a forum may jeopardise any potential warranty claim. As it is all new parts, and likely rebuilt on the advice of that professional, I'm guessing they would want to stand by their work.

    On the other hand, if it was rebuilt by a professional on the advice of the owner, ie "rebuild it with these second hand parts from U-Pull-It" don't ask, as refusal would offend :-)
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    Another cause, if the car has bottomed out during a "Dukes of Hazard" type jump and the sump pushed up to the oil pickup it can stop oil flow into the pickup. It's a reason why sump guards were invented.
    You would probably remember doing that though.
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    Last night I ran a test. Turn on the ignition and waited for the electric fuel pump to provide enough fuel to the bowls.
    Then I pumped the accelerator and started. Timed as well as I could, the oil light takes 5 seconds to go out and normal pressure is obtained.
    Last penrite oil change was last February. It has remote Ryco Syntec oil filter and oil cooler.
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    Hi
    Hard to say from my computer keyboard. But I would be looking at the filter. That is about the time to fill a filter with oil. So if it is draining down empty because the anti-drain valve is faulty it has to fill first. You might be able to check by carefully checking the oil level as the filter volume is a measurable amount.
    Or buy a filter you know has the anti-drain back valve and try that and see.
    Jaahn
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    The start process I use on the Lotus (being a very rare engine) is to turn the engine over with fuel pump running but no ignition. I am able to do that since it is a race car where I have fitted a separate kill switch on ignition only. The oil pressure needle moves up after about 6-7 seconds then I give it a few pumps on the twin carbs and she runs with instant oil pressure. My gauge is direct mechanical by way of oil line direct to gauge.

    On the other two 807's with electric pumps I turn them over while the float bowls fill which usually takes about 10 seconds, by which time oil pressure has registered, then pump and start.

    Apart from the Lotus, every start during the day after the first start gives instant oil pressure. As a precaution on the Lotus, even after the first start of the day I always wait for the gauge to move (usually a few seconds) before engaging ignition.
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    One question John....has this oil pressure "issue" always been an issue or has it just occurred recently (or have you just noticed it recently)? If the latter, it could be related to any recent changes...???
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bustamif View Post
    The start process I use on the Lotus (being a very rare engine) is to turn the engine over with fuel pump running but no ignition. I am able to do that since it is a race car where I have fitted a separate kill switch on ignition only. The oil pressure needle moves up after about 6-7 seconds then I give it a few pumps on the twin carbs and she runs with instant oil pressure. My gauge is direct mechanical by way of oil line direct to gauge.

    On the other two 807's with electric pumps I turn them over while the float bowls fill which usually takes about 10 seconds, by which time oil pressure has registered, then pump and start.

    Apart from the Lotus, every start during the day after the first start gives instant oil pressure. As a precaution on the Lotus, even after the first start of the day I always wait for the gauge to move (usually a few seconds) before engaging ignition.
    This is my method exactly when cold, but it takes longer than 10 seconds when cranking for the pressure to come up. I think Jaahn may have a point, but the remote filter is sitting up side down with these. Confirmed by contacting Ryco that the filter has ADV. But Nauli, I have not changed anything since the last oil change. this has been an issue for a few months.
    Pressure is between idle at 2 kPa to 4 at 100km (x 100) temp is always no more than pic indicated
    Oil guages.jpg
    speco.jpg
    Last edited by Shoji; 19th July 2019 at 11:47 AM.
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    Maybe you are worrying too much about a few seconds cranking. As long as there is oil on the bearings while cranking and the pressure is good when the engine is running around 3000 to 4000 at operating temp then climbs a tad more as the revs increase there doesn't seem to be a real problem. The engine has only just settled in and clearances normalised.

    Re tension the head and do the tappets and if you are worried about the bearings drop the sump and check the bearing surface on one bearing, Im sure it will be fine. Just remember, advice is worth what you have paid for it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bustamif View Post
    Maybe you are worrying too much about a few seconds cranking. As long as there is oil on the bearings while cranking and the pressure is good when the engine is running around 3000 to 4000 at operating temp then climbs a tad more as the revs increase there doesn't seem to be a real problem. The engine has only just settled in and clearances normalised.

    Re tension the head and do the tappets and if you are worried about the bearings drop the sump and check the bearing surface on one bearing, Im sure it will be fine. Just remember, advice is worth what you have paid for it.
    Thanks Bustamif, there is no problem once running at temp. I've even got the chokes to work on both carbs when cold and it sits and idles until warm enough without intervention.
    I've just bought a torque wrench and may tackle it myself.
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    See no issue at all, better just remove gauges and problem will go away.
    400kpa / 60psi plenty
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shoji View Post
    I've just bought a torque wrench and may tackle it myself.
    Before doing anything, if you don't want to go back to the repairer, go through any invoices to find out what gasket has been used. The headgasket may be of a type that may not require (or like) being re-tensioned.
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    Thank you Simon. All I know is that the head gasket had the blue bead. And it was re-tensioned after a 1000km or so by the builder. So my guess is it can be re-tensioned
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    Would like more info on these gaskets. I have never heard of the gaskets being an issue before, it is usually a case of tensioning and re-tensioning to eliminate or certainly minimise potential warp/movement between the alloy head, alloy block and steel liners. Not so experienced with cast iron blocks apart from copper gaskets on an F1 BMW Turbo engine from the 80's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shoji View Post
    It has remote Ryco Syntec oil filter and oil cooler.
    Can you easily disconnect this mod and return the car to its original filter set up and compare times??

    You could consider this option also.
    https://www.jegs.com/p/Moroso/Moroso...45635/10002/-1

    Jo
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    Hmm. You can test whether the oil filter is draining back by weighing it. Get a new one and weigh it dry. Pull off the old one after it has sat for a few days and weigh it. Refit the old one and run the engine to full oil pressure and then remove the filter immediately and weigh it, which should give you the weight full of oil. I imagine you can get a spec for the filter to find out its capacity, a guide to weight changes as it drains, if indeed it is draining.

    With our old 16TS the oil light would go out immediately. Always. I didn't have a gauge. The R8 takes 10 seconds or so to show oil pressure on the gauge when cranking without firing (yes, I have to have a look at the auto choke for the first time in years). When running at slow idle with a new oil filter, it takes 5 seconds or a bit more to refill the empty filter, then the oil pressure comes up. In normal use, oil pressure comes up almost immediately it fires up and has done since the rebuild of 1988.

    Bearings are lubricated adequately not just by oil pressure on the gauge but by the hydrodynamics of the rotating crankshaft journal in a fixed bearing with an oil film. The pump maintains supply to the journal system. Just as well eh?

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