2006 Clio 1.4 K4J engine bearing knock
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  1. #1
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    Default 2006 Clio 1.4 K4J engine bearing knock

    Hi guys,

    Here's a strange one for you. Son's Clio is very well maintained (fanatical with synth oil and Purflux filters) and the other day he started it cold on a slight nose up attitude and it had a loud engine bearing knock which took a while to go away. It's never done this before, and sounds fine now (and was fine the next morning cold).

    I'm thinking of an issue with a ball valve in the oil pump how does this work? Is there a head of oil kept up?

    Oil and filter were changed about 500km ago, and it's just below the top mark on the dipstick, and DEAD clean. The car's done just over 100,000km and has been serviced properly.

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    Confused.


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    Hmmm, I can't find any instances of the oil pump giving up the ghost. We might just have to drop the sump and have a look. Damn!


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    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    Perhaps given the angle the pump drained off and then took a few seconds to prime on start up. By comparison my son's 1.4 Clio was driven for a few minutes with a fist sized hole in the sump, ( I don't want to explain) and after a new sump and some oil it has driven another 5000 Klms without issue, although it now has snapped the cambelt, and we will work out how to proceed when we get the head off. It was due on age at just on 5 years, but less that 60K.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuey View Post
    Hmmm, I can't find any instances of the oil pump giving up the ghost. We might just have to drop the sump and have a look. Damn!
    Not recommended, this is like dismantling the engine to see why it is running so well

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuey View Post
    Hmmm, I can't find any instances of the oil pump giving up the ghost. We might just have to drop the sump and have a look. Damn!
    Not recommended, this is like dismantling the engine to see why it is running so well

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    I should add that on one other occasion on our more slopey (more than the original post situation) driveway it did seem to give a slight knock one morning but we put that down to the slope and that the oil was half way down the allowable range on the dipstick.

    The reason I'm thinking of having a look is that it did knock for quite a while and really loud (I'm not just talking rat tat tat then stop), and then we switched off, rolled it onto the flat, and restarted after checking the oil and it took a while for the knock to slowly disappear. I heard it from inside the house and went out to check; the car was on the front lawn.

    This to me suggests a bit of shit blocking the inlet and then moving, although I'm aware of the gauze mesh setup which is hard to block unless you do something silly.

    Can anyone say whether there's a ball valve of some kind and if so, does this only deal with overpressure?


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  7. #7
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Why not put an external oil pressure gauge on it and check?

    I think these days the filters have the anti-drain back valve built in.
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    The valve I'm referring to is a relief valve which allows up to a certain pressure then releases it. If this had a piece of debris in it intermittently, it would release all pressure I assume. I'm just not sure if all cars/pumps have this setup, but the ones I've seen have or at least somewhere in the oil galleries.

    I'd thought of an oil pressure gauge but that's of no use if the problem is only random.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuey View Post

    I'd thought of an oil pressure gauge but that's of no use if the problem is only random.
    It is because if it is installed in the cabin where it can easily be seen you can look at it when the offending knock appears and get a good idea of what the oil pressure is.

    Just my worth.
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  10. #10
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    Dip stick level not critical as long as it shows oil for engine to run Ok
    Check the sump and see that it is not dented.
    This will close the gap between the pick up and sump and you will have oil pick up problems
    Check out relief valve check
    As good as many
    https://www.howacarworks.com/engine/...mp-replacement
    Last edited by driven; 22nd May 2019 at 02:32 PM.

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuey View Post
    The valve I'm referring to is a relief valve which allows up to a certain pressure then releases it. If this had a piece of debris in it intermittently, it would release all pressure I assume. I'm just not sure if all cars/pumps have this setup, but the ones I've seen have or at least somewhere in the oil galleries.

    I'd thought of an oil pressure gauge but that's of no use if the problem is only random.

    I think you are right about oil pumps, but you mentioned the car had the problem on startup and you suspected a leaky anti drain back valve.

    I think you might have a point about some debris getting in, but how would it get in? It needs to pass the gauze filter at the sucking end of the pump, and that's pretty fine. Not impossible, but not very likely. One thing that can give problems like that is sealing silicone. People can take the sump off or some other thing and then smoosh two tons of silicone to seal it and in use a silicone thread can come off and end up in the sump. This can cause no end of damage if it ends up blocking the pump.

    All that said, I have seen a lot of people experiment with engines with no oil in them. They seem to be able to go for a while before they develop knocks. More often than not, they just lose pressure first (warning light coming on when oil hot) and then develop a knock after many more miles. We had a field vehicle that run with its oil light on for years before we scrapped it. By then it still didn't have any knocking sounds.

    Me thinks someone might have fooled around with something in the engine before you got the car and stuffed something up. Why did they sell it?

    On another slant, I love mechanical oil pressure gauges. Had a factory one in the BMW (NK 2000), much more reactive and accurate than the electric ones. Been looking for an aftermarket one for my 205GTI but found none that would integrate nicely in the dash. The BMW had one exactly like what I want (a circular sector, not a dial face) the right size, but those were a very very rare factory option.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

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  12. #12
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    The mention of dip stick level was to confirm it wasn't low, but also acknowledge it may have an effect if parked on particular angle on a reasonable slope. IN this case the slope wasn't enough to matter though.

    Sump is defo not dented, this car is well maintained and regularly looked over.

    Thanks for that link. I have a feeling there's something amiss with the pump and I've confirmed from a discusiion on another forum that the RS Clio has a relief valve in the pump so it's fairly likely that's where the lesser Clio's is.

    I note one thing a pressure gauge would be useful for is to check whether the pressure may be low all the time, because the lamp on the dash only comes on when it's virtually zero....pretty useless. So if the pump is generally inefficient it might not show in everyday use of the car.

    Thanks all.


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  13. #13
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    Schlitz, I meant whether the relief valve has a similar but secondary function to the anti drain back valve. I wasn't sure if they open in everyday use then shut and hold a head of oil upstream, or whether they only open in extreme use at like 6,000 rpm. I know people make them open at higher pressures in race cars. I'm a bit dubious about the efficacy ADB valves in oil filters when the filter is side on to the mount on the block anyway! The seal would have to be pretty good.


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  14. #14
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    The pressure relief valve opens a secondary passage in the pump, Stuey. Main circuit is open both ways at all times, so oil can drain back if the pump isn't working.

    Oil filter anti drain back valve is a rubber (some sort of) membrane that acts like a main bearing seal, oil pressure can only deflect it one way. The other way it just pushes the membrane to seal better.

    I have pulled apart engines from cars that had sat in wreckers' yards for years and still had oil in the filter. It does leak some, but I wouldn't think a good and/or new filter would lose enough oil overnight to cause problems. I don't think these are sensitive to what surface you park the car on either, they are not affected by gravity (and if they were, your filter would have a serious design flaw).

    Nor do I think you could find anywhere a surface sloped enough that the oil level in the sump would be below the pump intake. Maybe if you parked the car on a vertical wall.

    The dip stick is just so you can measure how much oil you've got, and the volume (oil level) and sump profile are designed so no matter how high a gradient you climb/descend or how hard you go around corners the pump intake is still submerged (the volume is most likely calculated to make sure you don't overheat the oil either). This is all within reasonable limits for the purpose of the car, I imagine.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 22nd May 2019 at 08:33 PM.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

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  15. #15
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    Cheers. Yeah, I know re the slope, it was just what you think to yourself when it happens; 'nose up, lowish oil, shouldn't happen but what else could it be' kind of thing. And indeed, I still don't have a clue!

    Looking at the design of the piston on the relief valve it doesn't look like it'd stick open easily though, so that's looking less likely. It's not a simple ball in a hole like some, but a long piston. Assuming the 172 has a similar design and the pump does look similar.

    I'll just have to see how it goes. I think the 'crap on the mesh' is the front runner. Or I wonder if the pump could be loose? I guess it'd make a racket. I might have to invest in a gauge...

    PS. Sorry I didn't answer your previous question; the previous lady owner just upgraded to something more comfortable with modern gadgets, but had it from new, serviced it with Renault (one owner) and was not the type to fiddle; the engine was pretty much untouched except for routine stuff. Also, it'd only done 66,000 km or something like that.


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  16. #16
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Well, that does not preclude some clot in the service department at Reno forgetting to fill up after an oil change or some such.

    Yeah, strange.

    I would be tempted to drop the sump too just in case there is something obvious.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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