Renault transmission numbers.
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Thread: Renault transmission numbers.

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! Artificer's Avatar
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    Default Renault transmission numbers.

    As some may know I have a bitza 1949 Light 15. This was highly modified when I bought it but not really well engineered:

    Behind a crossflow head engine 807-11 with less than 2000 miles on apparently @ a new clutch, throwout & pressure plate I fitted it has a 4 speed transmission.

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    The transmission has a 336-52 tag which is not listed in my Haynes manual
    I have another three transmissions 2 complete one with no tag another with 336-82 & another 352-32 in bits with all new bearings, not fitted.

    Help me get out of this Renault transmission number & parts inter changeability maze please.
    I want to rebuild one of these 336 transmissions to replace the current 336-52 with minimal vehicle downtime.
    Last edited by Artificer; 9th May 2019 at 06:28 AM.

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    336? Does the transmission live in front of the engine?

    352 is out of a R12 or some such (could be R17TL, R15TS, etc). Either way, they live behind the engine so no use if yours is in front. The diff crown is the wrong way around and you can't just flip it because you would end up using the crown wheel/pinion gear mesh as if going in reverse all the time, which would kill it swiftly.

    I don't know much about 336 but it sounds like a rear engine Renault to me. May be R16 as well? Others will know for sure.
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    the r15/r17 gearbox would be able to be used if you swap crown wheel to opposite side of pinion and do appropriate adjustments,diff bearings pre load and back lash of crownwheel,then you could fit it in front of engine as your drive side of crown wheel and pinion teeth would remain the same.just a thought..........jim

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Nope.

    You would still be driving on the wrong side of the teeth on both crownwheel and pinion (the gear is hypoid, not spiral bevel, so not reversible).
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    The 336 52 currently in this car is fitted as shown here...
    .
    Exactly the same way as the traction avant engine & transmission originally.

    What is the difference between 336 52 & 336 82?

    There was a typo in the original post & should have read 336-82 plus another transmission with no tag that looks exactly the same but has a different style throwout bearing.
    These 2 transmission cases plus the one in the car look similar & changer, speedo drive, transmission mounting are in the same position.

    As for the 352 I have, I want to know if some of the internals are the same as the 336 & if the full set of bearings [that are all new in packets] are usable in a transmission I will build out of all 3 336's so as to have one in VGC.

    I am an experienced tradesman & will have no difficulty getting things sorted once I know the differences in the 3 336's & parts interchangeability.

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Aha. So it is in front of the engine.

    For more info on the 352 box, you need to get yourself a R12 repair manual. For the 336 box I don't know what cars used it, but that shouldn't be too hard to find out. Get a manual for one of those cars.
    Your pictures show a setup similar to that used in R16.

    Even better if you could get the factory manuals because those give the Renault part numbers so you can directly compare numbers and see what's what.

    Either that, or you might want to contact Simon on this site. He is an encyclopaedia of Renault info. He might chime in if he sees the thread.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 8th May 2019 at 01:21 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    Nope.

    You would still be driving on the wrong side of the teeth on both crownwheel and pinion (the gear is hypoid, not spiral bevel, so not reversible).
    ummm,no think about it ,the engine/countershaft or input shaft and mainshaft/pinion shaft all retain same rotation.the crownwheel is just rotated over to other side of pinion which results in diff carrier rotating in opposite direction which gives 4 reverse and one forward gear and yes if used behind engine then forward drive would be on opposite side of teeth but if gearbox is placed in front of engine then four forward and one reverse gear and correct drive/thrust side of teeth is retained.......just a thought........jim

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    Not quite. The pinion height is 3mm below the centerline of the crownwheel in these gearboxes. To reverse it will mea the gears wont mesh.

    Quote Originally Posted by dacia4x4 View Post
    ummm,no think about it ,the engine/countershaft or input shaft and mainshaft/pinion shaft all retain same rotation.the crownwheel is just rotated over to other side of pinion which results in diff carrier rotating in opposite direction which gives 4 reverse and one forward gear and yes if used behind engine then forward drive would be on opposite side of teeth but if gearbox is placed in front of engine then four forward and one reverse gear and correct drive/thrust side of teeth is retained.......just a thought........jim

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    BTT would really like to know if anyone has an answer, to help me out, please?
    What's the actual differences between transmissions 336 52 & 336 82?

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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    Nope.
    You would still be driving on the wrong side of the teeth on both crownwheel and pinion (the gear is hypoid, not spiral bevel, so not reversible).
    Hi
    A gear no matter how it is cut is bi-directional. There is no technical difference to the sides of the teeth normally. The shape being different is just the result of the generation of the necessary shape in the machining. After all the gear has to do a lot of reverse driving in normal use during over run and down hills etc.

    But the 3mm offset of the pinion is important and precludes the swapping over of the crown wheel. But just pointing out a pinion could be machined to provide the required tooth shape to fit and work. That is what the factory does.
    Jaahn

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    The offset pinion tells you the gear is hypoid not spiral bevel. The design is asymmetric, and you can see this if you look at the teeth. I am guessing the tooth profile is designed to have a certain ramp up of strain through the gear mesh (looking at the tooth profile I would say it is a sort of sort of exponential increase (starts low at the first point of mesh and then gradually builds up until it is the highest, at which point the next tooth starts to mesh). At any point in time there are about three teeth engaged to take up the strain - this is another clever part of this design). Inverting the gear means the strain ramps up differently. Maybe this is not as strong a design as a spiral bevel or straight bevel but it solves some other problems otherwise I don't know why Renault (and pretty much everybody else) would go to the trouble of cutting what is a complicated design (compared to the alternatives). When I was looking at replacing these gears on my 365 g'box, I found only one place in Australia that could cut hypoid as opposed to quite a few that could cut spiral bevels.

    People have done inversions with the result I mentioned above.

    Dacia 4x4, yes, inverting the gears and the box does give you 4 speeds in the right direction (I didn't object to that) but it comes with the problem I mentioned.

    Reverse every now and then it's okay, but driving your car in reverse will soon kill it. Another sign something is different is the different transmission noise you get when in reverse. Why do you think that is?

    https://khkgears.net/new/hypoid_gears.html

    Re 336 gearboxes, I found on the interwebs they have been used in Lotus Europas:

    https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...rbox-168589513

    But also in R16:

    https://www.renault16shop.com/7701498377

    Which means these boxes came with both types of drives.

    Try to search on the interwebs or contact Simon here. Or just buy a Haynes' or Renault manual! Look hard enough and you may even find a free download in pdf.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 12th May 2019 at 03:11 PM.
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    Default renault transmission numbers

    Hi Schlitz,angru, I appreciate your info on hypoid gears Schlitz and understand the 3mm offset of pinion/mainshaft offset in relation to crownwheel centreline, which translates to pinion sitting 3mm below crownwheel axis in normal set up and with crownwheel rolled over to opposite side of pinion it would effectively be 3mm above centre lineof crown wheel in relation to crownwheel rotation.what I was basically saying is the same set up as the lotus Europa as seen in your attached reference Schlitz the crownwheel is in position as set in r12 as apposed to r16,how do you feel this has worked? jim

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    I suspect they have different pairs of gears for inverted boxes hence the need to accurately identify the box by those suffix numbers. 352 drives from behind the engine so no mods needed there for a Lotus.

    What I can suggest is you try and drive your box backwards see what happens. As I said earlier, the mod has been tried with disastrous results. In the link above you can read about the tooth profile of a hypoid gear and see for yourself why it isn't invertible (or not for long).
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    hi Schlitz, my perception is that the gearbox is not inverted (as in Europa set up) as I said earlier the input and mainshafts(pinion shaft)still rotate in normal direction,unless reverse gear is selected,the only components turning in opposite direction is crownwheel by being on opposite side of pinion gear and diff carrier/bearings.the rotation of pinion over crownwheel teeth stays same if pinion rotation is same as in forward gears,the 3mm offset admittedly changes pinion position in relation to crownwheel in direction of rotation.but if gearbox is placed behind engine and not inverted then drive faces of gears stays same.the gearbox would not be driving in reverse of crown wheel,reverse gear noise I normally associate with straight cut reverse gears......jim

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    COL
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post

    Reverse every now and then it's okay, but driving your car in reverse will soon kill it. Another sign something is different is the different transmission noise you get when in reverse. Why do you think that is?
    The reason for the whine in most gearboxes when in reverse is because of the straight cut gears, and there is also an extra cog to add to the effect
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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Yep, just realised that, you're right, I forgot the straight cut gears for reverse.

    When I said the 'box inverted I meant in front of the engine (that's because I am used to the box being behind the engine, having grown up in a R12).

    Renault had a number of cars in production in the seventies some of which took the 'box behind the engine, some in front. It is not impossible to imagine they used as many parts as possible from one car to the next and only add a new part to their inventory when it was absolutely necessary. G'boxes have different suffixes for all sorts of reasons like that. It may very well be that some 336 boxes were equipped to drive from behind the engine whilst others from the front.
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    Now I’m questioning if the 336 box does have an offset pinion... I believe the 336 had a version that was Europa specific, and would have had the crownwheel on the opposite side... I wonder if the crownwheel and pinion was specifically different for these boxes, I know the output sections of the diff were.
    I had always thought that the only Renault transaxle with a centeral pinion was the 365...
    As for the numbers after the 336, I don’t know what they mean (but am now curious to find out). I wonder if they’re slightly different ratios maybe? (Maybe the very early cars had different diff ration or something). Only other thing I can think of that changed between late and early r16 gearboxes was the addition of a reverse light switch.

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    365 doesn't have a central pinion. Still offset. I have one right here.

    UN1 does.
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    Hi
    Years ago I asked the question about the different versions of boxes listed. I was told that Renault had different factories producing cars and when setting up to make a new car they had to slightly adapt some things to suit the existing production machinery in that factory. They did not just buy new machines to suit every new car. Made sense to me.
    Jaahn

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    336 is R16 box the last number is simply production numeral parts are interchangeable. Usually the later number will incorporate some production mods as the years went on The last number also tells from what chassis number it was from. Small improvement made would be. Slight ratio changes, Seal types and composition and machine depths from say 10mm to 12 mm and such things as say a clutch fork running on the plain aluminium casting to the later ones having a phosphor bronze bush to improve the life of the component. 336-82 is a R1151 model from chassis number 388701
    Last edited by french merde; 29th July 2019 at 08:49 PM.

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    Hi Artificer, this is what I know or believe about the above.

    The 336 is as stated a hypoid bevel gearbox. The CW can be physically 'inverted' in the case, and bolted back together but the resulting misalignment with the P, munches up the gears very quickly.

    Lotus 336 gearboxes have suffixes -26 -46 -56. These had Lotus-only CW&P sets machined so they could be installed inverted from the normal orientation, and work.

    Lotus used 352s and 365s, but they required no modification, as they sat behind the motor in Renaults. That said, Lotus used the 365-00 which seems to have only otherwise been in the R12 Gordini. It has a significantly taller 5th - 31x27 vs 31x29.

    Non Lotus 336 gearboxes had either 11x38 or 13x47 1st gear, 2nd was 17x38 or 19x43, 3rd seems to have only been 23x34, 4th was either 28x29 or 31x32, and either 9x34 or 8x34 final drives.

    I would think the only really important difference is the overall gearing. My info says that if you put it in 4th, the ratio of input shaft to output shafts will be either 4.33:1 or 3.93:1. So without wanting to profess any hands-on expertise with gearboxes, I would think that if you reco one of these 336 boxes, just make sure it has the higher, or lower, final drive, as preferred. I dont have info about 336-52 or 336-82 specifically (though I note the prior poster...), but aside from final drive ratio, my impression is that it doesnt make any real difference for your purpose.

    352 gearboxes seem to have used the same gear options as noted for the 336, including either of the final drive ratios, depending on the suffix.

    All that aside, bitza or not, I would think the Light 15 with the 807 motor would get along quite nicely. Is it a good driving experience?

    Regards,
    Andy
    Last edited by 1972Ren; 30th July 2019 at 01:46 AM.

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