High Volume Oil Pump for Racecar.
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Thread: High Volume Oil Pump for Racecar.

  1. #1
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Default High Volume Oil Pump for Racecar.

    Hi All,

    A while back I have briefly touched on a self-made higher volume oil pump for the racecar. It all looked viable to me and I eventually started on the little project.

    So far it has been only a basic fitting and filing process and it was a lot of elbow grease stuff to get this far. I still need to do the finer stuff to get the clearances right and do something with the pressure relief valve. I have in the past made an adjustable relief valve which I might do again. It didn't work on the normal pump because there wasn't enough volume to bypass when the oil gets thinner as it heats up.

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    The next problem might be the pick-up that can be too close or too far away from the bottom of the sump. That I will see to when I get there. Tackle the problem as they appear, don't solve it when you're not there yet.

    A few photos of the pump as it is up to now.

    This is model B as model A didn't work and the clearances were a bit out.



    A bit of hacksaw exercising.









    This mod will increase the oil flow from the 25mm standard gears to 35mm in this case. It could be as much as 37mm but then you will need to scrap another oil pump to get enough length for the gears. I think this is about 3mm more than the MecaParts/Gordini high volume pump.

    Regards, Frans.
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  2. #2
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    Great effort. It looks like the perfect job for a CNC mill.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    So right Peter!!

    The spacer plate then got its turn on the milling machine and shaved off to spec. I still battle with accuracy. With that I mean the 0.01 of a millimeter and I blame that on the machine. It was a cheapie bought about 30 years ago and the beginning of the Chinese imports to ZA. It could also be the fact that I'm not a machinist. There might be tricks of the trade that I need to catch up with.



    The pump assembled with a short pick-up from the early R8s with the shallower sump. I will see when I drop the sump if this will do or else I will have to make another plan.





    The next step will be to setup a sort of a test bench and run it for hours on end to see if there is any issues before I put it in the race car. The test bench will have cold oil that will put maximum stress on the drive gear and the add ons. If the oil heats up and gets thinner the pump turns easier so that will not be a test condition however, come to think of it, that will show me if there is and major leakage between the spacer plate and the pump.

    Now to join in on mothersday!

    Regards, Frans.
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    Love the explanation and photos. Makes it all look doable.




    The word "doable" is registered to 59 Floride.
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  5. #5
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    Continued.........the test bench. I'm not in a rush with this but here are some progress made.

    The outlet is a 10.5 mm and that meant that the only tap size will have to be M12. The M12 was then tapped in the pump body.





    i then took a M12 bolt and cut to size, drilled and tapped it 1/8" BSPT to accept a fitting that will take it to either 6mm copper or PVC tubing.







    Next will be the press gauge, regulator and can of oil to circulate the test oil.

    Regards, Frans.
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  6. #6
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    You need to flycut that spacer to make sure the mating surfaces are flat and have the best finish, Frans. The mill needs to be trammed in correctly otherwise you will not have a flat surface no matter what you cut it with. In fact there is no better way to find out your mill isn't trammed than doing a flycut. Do you have test indicator? I have achieved amazing results on my cheap chinese mill, which is the smallest you can buy, but in Aluminium/soft metals it leaves a spectacular finish on flycut surfaces. Steel would be a different story, of course.

    All that aside, I would try to do a better job of clamping the work to the table.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Hi All,

    Schlitz, I know what you mean, the tramming is very close to perfect which I set up many years ago at the time I moved into this house. I did it with a dial gauge and both the X and Y travel is within 3 thou over about 12". What I do need to do is Google and make myself a flycutter, if it can be made. I never used one yet and maybe I should do some practise runs to get the right feeding speed etc. I have however taken the spacer and finished it on a piece of glass with water paper. I have just seen on the test setup that the mating surfaces are perfect matches. No leakage.

    Everything complete and the pump is running at 500rpm which relates to about idling speed. I have just learnt that when using old stuff there can be surprises waiting. For instance this relief valve. Everything looks good and normal but it is not. I would've assembled it and fitted it in the car and the best this pump can do is 35psi!!! Obviously, there is a bad seating ballbearing or a very sloppy spring in there. Look at all the oil releasing through the press regulating port.

    From now on I will test each pump before installation, it can save a lot of work if you spend a little extra time. I actually like to find things like this. It increases your knowledge.

    This gauge can't be wrong, well I don't think it is wrong and I will test it after this exercise.



    Look at the by-pass of oil back into the sump.



    Regards, Frans.
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  8. #8
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Don't you need a stronger spring to set the valve to open at higher pressure?

    3 thou over 12 inches is probably okay for this exercise. The problem with fly cutting is that the cut becomes an arc instead of a plane if the cutter comes at an angle and it will cut a bow in your part commensurate with the diameter of the tool circle. This means a small angle out of tram can result in a big problem with a large diameter fly cutter. That is also a good method to measure tram. Take a cut with a large diameter fly cutter and then measure the bow with a test indicator.

    I was contemplating making my own fly cutter until I found out what they cost.

    You can of course use a boring head if you have one.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Hi All,

    I did a few runs with different oil pumps and today I did a test with times and temps for comparison. A very strange thing happens when the pumps are connected and running. The 3 l of oil in the container gets hot reasonable quick. It picks up heat quicker with the hi-volume pump. At the end of the standard pump test, I had to heat the oil with a flame to get to a temperature where I could get a good result. The list below shows what is going on and the constants were the 500rpm speed, the same oil in the container, the same gauge with the same outlet flow. The outlet flow is an open 6mm copper tubing, so I think it is much more than in a car. Imagine the tight fit between the bearings, the cam and then up to the head, you have close dimensions between the rocker shaft and rockers as well. I am sure that must be less flow than just the open copper tubing.



    The new high volume pump looks like it shows its value when the oil temp rises above the point where the return closes. I never thought that oil gets so much thinner in so little degrees.

    This is just to show the oil returning into the container and the opening of the outlet after the pressure gauge back into the container as well.





    The end result: do you think it is worthwhile to go with the high volume pump way?

    I'd like to think so because this test is at various extremes. It was done at "idling" speed, it was done with almost no back pressure. The temp rise remains a surprise and the loss of "thickness" with that small differential temperature was a surprise to me. When the oil rose to the 35-degree mark the difference in oil pressure started to jump with big steps between the two and if one would carry on with a graph I think it will give you good results.

    Regards, Frans.
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  10. #10
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    It seems you now also have a good test setup to compare the performance of different oils. Could be very interesting.
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  11. #11
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    The loss of "thickness" is due to the viscosity changing logarithmically with temperature see chart
    http://www.oemdynamics.com.au/PDF/viscosity.pdf
    Need to find correct oil for operating temperature range

    Don't over rev engine engine at low temps as you are likely to shear of the oil pump drive shaft

    F1 engines are basically a solid mass at room temperature the clearances are so tight.
    need to get them up to operating Temp before attempting to turn over

    Oil pressure is required to separate the moving parts. More flow will give better oil cooling

    What is your oil temp when racing?

    Oil cooler may give better results??

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    Speeking of oil temps, what kind of temperatures are too hot ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by driven View Post
    The loss of "thickness" is due to the viscosity changing logarithmically with temperature see chart
    http://www.oemdynamics.com.au/PDF/viscosity.pdf
    Need to find correct oil for operating temperature range

    Don't over rev engine engine at low temps as you are likely to shear of the oil pump drive shaft

    F1 engines are basically a solid mass at room temperature the clearances are so tight.
    need to get them up to operating Temp before attempting to turn over

    Oil pressure is required to separate the moving parts. More flow will give better oil cooling

    What is your oil temp when racing?

    Oil cooler may give better results??
    Interesting thread, as usual from Frans (thanks!). I disagree with one thing - oil pressure gets the oil where you need it but much of the separation at rotating bearings is hydrodynamic, the oil pump getting plenty of oil feed to the moving parts but the pressure of the pump isn't the key factor IMHO - tat's a separate thread issue about which I don't know enough anyway.
    JohnW

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    Quote Originally Posted by R8RX View Post
    Speeking of oil temps, what kind of temperatures are too hot ?
    Hi
    Interesting thread. As far as temperatures go here is a real article that is from the aircraft business. Not just some hot rod theory. It is hotter than you might think. 245F=118C
    https://generalaviationnews.com/2018...rature-engine/
    Sorry about the degrees farenheit so here is a converter site.
    https://www.google.com/search?q=fare...hrome&ie=UTF-8

    It is interesting to measure things Frans and get some real answers. Great work. Having a bigger pump will add heat to the oil faster as you saw, and use more power doing it. The more oil pumped through the relief valve will be more heat into the oil. I guess the size of the pump is a balance between just enough to do the job and not too big. Pressure is only needed to get the oil to the necessary places where it is needed. The bearings do make their own pressure hydrodynamically.
    Cheers jaahn
    Last edited by jaahn; 16th June 2019 at 11:10 PM.

  15. #15
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    I think the oil temp gauge in the 205GTI goes into red at about 250C. Each oil would probably have its own range, I imagine.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    I think the oil temp gauge in the 205GTI goes into red at about 250C. Each oil would probably have its own range, I imagine.
    Hmmm
    I doubt that temperature of 250 C I think that would be in the fire range for most oils. Check please !
    Jaahn

  17. #17
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    I have an aftermarket one and that is ranged to 150C and towards the end of the 8 laps the temperature of the oil is past the max.

    Frans.
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  18. #18
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaahn View Post
    Hmmm
    I doubt that temperature of 250 C I think that would be in the fire range for most oils. Check please !
    Jaahn
    My mistake. The GTI doesn't have values on the dial. It was the Mi16 I was remembering, and its gauge goes to 110 and then some more lines.

    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/att...s-imgp2648.jpg
    jaahn likes this.
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    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  19. #19
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    I recall having a discussion with my old dad ,a marine engineer about how some oils will drop viscosity at a given temp suddenly and other oils gradually ,some research on the properties of different oils could be enlightening ,he also mentioned that excessive oil pressure and flow can erode white metal bearings[ trying to squeeze a lot of oil through small gaps ] ,leading to premature failure .i realize that a marine diesel is revving at a much lower speed than in a car ,the primary purpose of oil is to lubricate ,an oil cooler s purpose is to keep the oil temp to a point were it can best do its job ,it can help cool the engine but thats not its primary purpose , my two cents worth, pugs

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