Renault 16TS air con?
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Thread: Renault 16TS air con?

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    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default Renault 16TS air con?

    So.. I recently obtained another 16TS (was the red car from Bathurst that was in this site a couple of months back) that Iím doing a pretty thorough overhaul of (engine out repaint, 1647 motor, front end rebush, all that). Iím remembering 20 years ago seeing a couple of 16ts underdash air con units. Pretty sure I never ever saw one that worked, but Iím wondering if anybody had been able to make one function effectively? Iíve worked on Citroen DSís that have had similar underdash setups that have been reasonably successful and I figure if the underdash part of the r16 system could be made to function correctly itís possible it could be used with a modern type compressor. Iím sure there would be a modern condenser that could be made to fit in front of the radiator too if a god one of the original setup wasnít available. Wonder about mounting a compressor and the coupling to the cam pulley.
    If anybody has had any success with air con-ing a r16 Iíd love to know.
    also if anybody has the bits to make this happen Iíd be interested.

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    Quote Originally Posted by angru View Post
    Tried to edit this and somehow reposted it.. tried to delete this one but hasn’t worked.
    Ours had an under-dash unit and it worked well. Similarly with our Renault Virage.

    There were factory units too AFAIK, as I'm sure I've seen a parts book showing them.

    The problem, mechanically, is that the compressor must be driven off the end of the camshaft. My understanding is that the factory units had a big rubber donut to take up the shock of the compressor switching on - the timing chain and sprockets get a hammering otherwise. I did hear of one that snapped a camshaft but I'm guessing it was more than the normal operation that did it.

    Anyway, yes, it can be done and can be quite effective. You lose the glovebox...

    Cheers
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    Thanks for the reply JohnW. I figure a modernn compressor would put less load on the camshaft. I remember the rubber donut that connects it although haven’t seen one for a long time. Thinking about it aDS, SM, CX all had much more load running off their camshafts and some of them are still running. At the moment it’s just an idea that I entertain when I’m in a boring night shift... but if the parts were available at the right price ai’d probably be silly enough to give it a go.

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    PolyFlex in Queensland have a vast range of durable and efficient polyurethane couplings. I used one on the front of the back diff of my RX4 after the MTU rubber one fell apart.
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    Quote Originally Posted by angru View Post
    Thanks for the reply JohnW. I figure a modernn compressor would put less load on the camshaft. I remember the rubber donut that connects it although haven’t seen one for a long time. Thinking about it aDS, SM, CX all had much more load running off their camshafts and some of them are still running. At the moment it’s just an idea that I entertain when I’m in a boring night shift... but if the parts were available at the right price ai’d probably be silly enough to give it a go.
    The Citroen engines were all designed at the beginning to accept the load of the hydraulic pump etc off the end of the camshaft. And the CX, for example, is a bigger and heavier engine all around.

    The only problem with ours was that the compressor mount, to the gearbox and an existing, surplus threaded socket, had cracked the gearbox casing in a way that looked like it was the tensile load shock of the compressor cutting in. Silastic fixed it and we removed and sold the AC.
    JohnW

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    R 16 TS engine run off crank which is the best way:
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    [QUOTE=Artificer;1610508]R 16 TS engine run off crank which is the best way:

    Yep, would be no e if here was space for it. Not in a 16TS engine bay though. If I can find a setup I’ll run it off the cam and if it breaks I’ll fix it. Thinking about it though, have fixed a lot more cx’s with noisy timing chains than r15/16/17 motors, maybe because they do generally have more running off them. Suppose to other way would be electric compressor like a Prius or something. I already need a bigger alternator to run my driving lights.

    EDIT. after a quick look it seems prius run hi voltage for their A/C so that won’t work. Back to the cmashaft.
    Last edited by angru; 20th April 2019 at 08:07 PM.

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    I had a R16TS Automatique that had air-con and it worked superbly. It had a MK4 unit under the dash. The compressor sat on top of the gearbox, just in front of the engine with a belt to the engine front pully. It was actuated by a solenoid. This car also had a soft wesbasto sunroof and was Trak yellow. Not sure what happened to it. Was serviced by Renauli.
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    I've just been through this process with my R12. I had similar concerns as mentioned above regarding the shock load on the cam and timing gears, but also had no space to mount the compressor under the intake, so I had to go a different and somewhat expensive route. My solution was a 12v electric compressor which can be mounted anywhere, like in the glovebox or boot, but in my case it is in the engine bay where the battery used to sit and I'm putting in a fresh air vent to keep it cool in the engine bay. Its not a cheap solution, but there are a couple of manufacturers in the US that are making similar units for hot rod applications, though mine was supplied by Rencool in QLD, and the blower unit I used is an under dash unit from Vintage Air. When I finish the project (not any time soon) there will be a lot of photos.
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    But with the R12, you run the compressor from the crankshaft pulley not the camshaft..... Ours had the compressor mounted below the alternator, which was elevated with single belts and a fabricated mounting system.

    I do like the idea of an electric compressor - how many amps does it draw please? I'm pondering alternator size!

    Cheers

    John
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    Great! Thanks for posting! Good to know somebody has found a suitable 12v compressor... I was looking at hybrid vehicles in the hope of finding a 12v second hand, and somewhat affordable compressor, but they don’t seem to be 12v compatible. As I said, I’m not overly concerned with timing chain, cam issues... will have new timing chain and good sprocket when I build the motor; won’t get a heap of use, and if it does have problems down the track I have a few spare parts at my disposal and the ability to repair without having to pay somebody else to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by 3006882 View Post
    I've just been through this process with my R12. I had similar concerns as mentioned above regarding the shock load on the cam and timing gears, but also had no space to mount the compressor under the intake, so I had to go a different and somewhat expensive route. My solution was a 12v electric compressor which can be mounted anywhere, like in the glovebox or boot, but in my case it is in the engine bay where the battery used to sit and I'm putting in a fresh air vent to keep it cool in the engine bay. Its not a cheap solution, but there are a couple of manufacturers in the US that are making similar units for hot rod applications, though mine was supplied by Rencool in QLD, and the blower unit I used is an under dash unit from Vintage Air. When I finish the project (not any time soon) there will be a lot of photos.
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    One good thing with the electric compressor is that it shouldn't affect idle speed. That's one of the challenges with carb or early fuel injection setups especially on a smaller engine with conventional a/c - maintaining a decent stable idle with a/c on, especially on a really hot day in traffic when the engine typically runs slightly off from effect of heat on the fuel system.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuey View Post
    One good thing with the electric compressor is that it shouldn't affect idle speed. That's one of the challenges with carb or early fuel injection setups especially on a smaller engine with conventional a/c - maintaining a decent stable idle with a/c on, especially on a really hot day in traffic when the engine typically runs slightly off from effect of heat on the fuel system.
    There will be extra load from the alternator as presumably the electric AC compressor would have a sizable current draw.
    The extra alternator load will slow down the motor at idle (and other speeds).
    Nothing comes for free, if you want high current from the alternator you will pay with extra load on the motor.
    In the early days before computers controlled everything on the motor it was customary to fit an 'idle-up' solenoid that increased the idle either by acting directly on the carb or indirectly through a vacuum module.
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    Yeah, I knew all that and was going to go right into it and explain the following; that I wouldn't have thought it would slow the engine as much as directly driving a compressor and it would be more damped and gradual (being like an inductive drag) so easier to compensate. I should have clarified I meant this rather than it wouldn't affect the speed at all.

    As I alluded to, the older systems still didn't control the idle very well. I've had cars with those setups; a BMW with K-Jet that had a very poor idle with aircon on (it increased, but then idled too high and was a pig to drive because the revs didn't drop swiftly enough when changing gears) and then they'd drop and the engine would almost stall. Even the Mi16 wasn't ideal and got quite cranky in really hot weather with the aircon on even though the idle stepped up a little. Especially if the compressor switches in and out on a less than full-high temp setting and the idle control (both additional and/or stock) starts to struggle.

    On the other hand, I can't help thinking a 12v motor would struggle a bit with compressor duties.
    Last edited by Stuey; 22nd April 2019 at 12:26 PM.


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    Brother in law's 1.4 litre Virage Wagon with air had a micro-switch on the accelerator pedal that disconnected the air-con when flooring the accelerator. This was necessary to ensure sustained leisurely acceleration! And it really was necessary, from practical experience.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    Brother in law's 1.4 litre Virage Wagon with air had a micro-switch on the accelerator pedal that disconnected the air-con when flooring the accelerator. This was necessary to ensure sustained leisurely acceleration! And it really was necessary, from practical experience.....
    Was this Virage Wagon an auto by any chance??
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    Quote Originally Posted by COL View Post
    Was this Virage Wagon an auto by any chance??
    I'm struggling to recall but knowing the BIL it probably was! Pale silver green.
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    I'm struggling to recall but knowing the BIL it probably was! Pale silver green.
    Even without the air con the auto Virages were not exactly renowned for their acceleration. The manual version were fine and quite a nippy car.
    Regards Col

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    Quote Originally Posted by REN TIN TIN View Post
    There will be extra load from the alternator as presumably the electric AC compressor would have a sizable current draw.
    The extra alternator load will slow down the motor at idle (and other speeds).
    Nothing comes for free, if you want high current from the alternator you will pay with extra load on the motor.
    In the early days before computers controlled everything on the motor it was customary to fit an 'idle-up' solenoid that increased the idle either by acting directly on the carb or indirectly through a vacuum module.
    I'd still like to know the current demand of the 12V compressor. The load on the alternator will have to match that, and I doubt it will be as small as 55 amps, for example.

    The problem with the R12 with idling on a hot day with AC was that the belt-driven cooling fan was inadequate at idle speed but there was no room for an electric fan except by removing the grill. So the company in Perth that fitted them didn't allow AC to operate at idle speed, and they did lots of cars in the day. Bumping up the idle speed was not seen as a solution then. Surely this will still apply even if the compressor is driven electrically with a bloody big alternator? It's the cooling load of the condenser sitting behind or in front of the radiator that caused this issue. I think you could possibly make it work by removing the fan from the water pump and somehow finding a modern electric cooling fan that would fit. Maybe a motor bike fan or two?
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    As you point out, on an R12 there isn't much room in front of the radiator for a fan but you can fit an electric radiator fan behind the radiator if you take off the engine driven fan. A 10 inch will fit and maybe a 12 inch at a pinch (The standard R12 radiator core is 30cm high) or a couple of smaller types, maybe 2 x 6 inch. The fan would of course have to be one of the low profile types and would be mounted on the hot side of the radiator near the alternator.
    Anyway, if you're fitting AC to a R12 you need to mount the condenser in front of the radiator and that's going to be tight.

    But we digress, the discussion is about AC in an R16 and it already has a electric radiator fan and room for a small auxiliary fax if additional cooling is needed.
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    Hi angru
    Just an additional thought to while away those long shifts.
    The condensor does not have to be mounted in front off the radiator. You can mount it somewhere else where the air will flow and have some electric fan(s). Some small vans and also middle sized vans and buses have them elsewhere. My Sprinter has the condensor at the side behind the drivers door down low underneath. This may not be all that useful but no charge ?
    Jaahn
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    I have seen a couple of modern aftermarket small & compact units installed in historic cars (eg 50's Bentley) by a guy who does some work on my A110 and Delta Integrale....Ray (Gecko Eng) knows what/who I'm talking about. They are relatively inexpensive and work very well without looking like big ugly tack on units. Do a Google search.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nauli View Post
    I have seen a couple of modern aftermarket small & compact units installed in historic cars (eg 50's Bentley) by a guy who does some work on my A110 and Delta Integrale....Ray (Gecko Eng) knows what/who I'm talking about. They are relatively inexpensive and work very well without looking like big ugly tack on units. Do a Google search.
    Electric drive by any chance?
    JohnW

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    But with the R12, you run the compressor from the crankshaft pulley not the camshaft..... Ours had the compressor mounted below the alternator, which was elevated with single belts and a fabricated mounting system.

    I do like the idea of an electric compressor - how many amps does it draw please? I'm pondering alternator size!

    Cheers

    John
    I should have pointed out that my R12 has a 17 engine in it, hence the compressor location problems.
    I can't recall the amp draw off the top of my head, but it runs through an 80 amp breaker, so I assume its peak draw is 60-70 amp and 40-50 constant.
    The build is still in progress, so I haven't had a chance to gas it and test it yet. I also haven't gotten around to having the alternator rebuilt for all of the extra load yet either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    Electric drive by any chance?
    Not 100% sure John...
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