Suspension arms - bolt torque
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    Default Suspension arms - bolt torque

    I am about to assemble the front suspension on my R8. Are there any specified torque for the suspension arm bolts or do you just tighten these as much as you can?

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    Quote Originally Posted by R8RX View Post
    I am about to assemble the front suspension on my R8. Are there any specified torque for the suspension arm bolts or do you just tighten these as much as you can?
    This might help?
    Angelo

    Attachment 111340Attachment 111341

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    Thank you very much!! This will help me. Just didnt realized how tight some of these bolts/nuts need to be before I converted ft/lb to nm.

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    Do you have a workshop manual????
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    Do you have a workshop manual????
    If I have a workshop manual?

    I have an old one written in german, but it cover just the basics. And any specified torque settings are for engine and gearbox.

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    i'll dig mine out tomorrow and see what is there.
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    50ft lb is not that much and those nuts are nylock so they won't come off anyway. I used to snug them up the the arm so the entire sandwich of bushings and spacers is pinched a bit and leave them alone.

    What is more important and I am surprised that none of the R8/R10 people here mentioned is that you have to make sure you tighten the suspension at full droop. This will preload (twist) the bushings in normal use such that they oppose compressing the suspension and help with damping vibrations. The tightening torque is more important to make sure the bushings are indeed pinched and keep their preload (rather than spinning on the shaft) than making sure the arms don't come off (they won't).
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    50ft lb is not that much and those nuts are nylock so they won't come off anyway. I used to snug them up the the arm so the entire sandwich of bushings and spacers is pinched a bit and leave them alone.

    What is more important and I am surprised that none of the R8/R10 people here mentioned is that you have to make sure you tighten the suspension at the bottom end of travel. This will preload (twist) the bushings in normal use such that they oppose compressing the suspension and help with damping vibrations. The tightening torque is more important to make sure the bushings are indeed pinched and keep their preload rather than making sure the arms don't come off (they won't).
    There's more than one opinion about that... I recall posts about only tightening them when the suspension is loaded and sitting in its normal rest position. I replaced mine about ten years ago and have no idea at what position I tightened them up, but all is sweet to this day. It was probably as you say, at the bottom end of travel with the car jacked up I imagine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    50ft lb is not that much and those nuts are nylock so they won't come off anyway. I used to snug them up the the arm so the entire sandwich of bushings and spacers is pinched a bit and leave them alone.

    What is more important and I am surprised that none of the R8/R10 people here mentioned is that you have to make sure you tighten the suspension at full droop. This will preload (twist) the bushings in normal use such that they oppose compressing the suspension and help with damping vibrations. The tightening torque is more important to make sure the bushings are indeed pinched and keep their preload (rather than spinning on the shaft) than making sure the arms don't come off (they won't).
    I was thinking of the 170ft/lb qouted on the lower suspension arm

    Ok, thanks for that advice

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    Yeah, I think that is excessive and am not sure why they require that crazy torque. I would do them up to my satisfaction and rely on the nyloc to keep them tight in place. The only other place where I have seen the manual require such torque was the gearbox secondary shaft nut but I understand why that might need it.

    Other manufacturers don't require such high torque even there.

    That said, I owned a few Hondas and every nut and bolt was much tighter than any other car I owned. The crank pulley bolts especially. Killed quite a few of my spanners but I don't really see the point.
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    Ok, so maybe a little over half that torque would be enough?

    And another question. Do anyone here have a wheel aligment setup for rally/rallycross use?

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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    50ft lb is not that much and those nuts are nylock so they won't come off anyway. I used to snug them up the the arm so the entire sandwich of bushings and spacers is pinched a bit and leave them alone.
    What is more important and I am surprised that none of the R8/R10 people here mentioned is that you have to make sure you tighten the suspension at full droop. This will preload (twist) the bushings in normal use such that they oppose compressing the suspension and help with damping vibrations. The tightening torque is more important to make sure the bushings are indeed pinched and keep their preload (rather than spinning on the shaft) than making sure the arms don't come off (they won't).
    Hi
    It is a long time since I worked on these. However I would say that 175 ftlbs is a very large torque and from my previous experience with manuals is it is probably a mistake in the translation and rewriting from the original documents. Anyone got a French original book. You could check in an engineering book for that thread size to see if it is a reasonable torque for that size.
    The second point, is how to position the suspension when tightening the shafts. Schilitzaugen may be correct but with all cars I have worked on it has been the rule to sit the car back down at the normal height before finally tightening the bushes so the rubber is not always prestressed. The rubber bushes are not considered a spring and should not be used as such normally, so they do not prematurely fail. It is correct IMHO to tighten the nuts enough to clamp the bush inners and the shafts so they do not move in use.
    Jaahn
    Here is a general recommendation for tightening bolts from a supplier. All grades shown but those shafts would be only max of 8.8 possibly lower.
    https://www.hi-tensilebolt.com.au/st...-bolts-metric/
    Last edited by jaahn; 14th December 2018 at 10:32 AM.
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    I'd agree that 175 lbs ft is a might big torque, especially for those nuts.... 145 lbs ft is the torque for the half shaft nut - believe me that is quite a torque from personal experience!

    My factory manual says 65 for the lower arm pivots (9 m kg, expressed as "m.da N" in the book) and 50 lbs ft for the uppers (6.5 m.da N). Given there are 2.2 lbs in 1 kg and 1 m is 3.28 feet, the conversion factor is 7.2. 9x7.2 = 64.9 so Renault's manual conversions are OK in this case. These torques are comparable with cylinder head bolts.
    Last edited by JohnW; 14th December 2018 at 02:00 PM.
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    Yeap.

    Which is why I was thinking you may actually stretch the bolt. For a similar torque, BMW imperatively requests head bolts not be reused on their M10 engines (BMW 2002 and so on) for this very reason.

    Bushings are consumables, and we're not trying to save them for longevity, jaahn. They have a job to do and when they're done, we replace them.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 15th December 2018 at 01:16 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    Yeah, I think that is excessive and am not sure why they require that crazy torque. I would do them up to my satisfaction and rely on the nyloc to keep them tight in place. The only other place where I have seen the manual require such torque was the gearbox secondary shaft nut but I understand why that might need it.

    Other manufacturers don't require such high torque even there.

    That said, I owned a few Hondas and every nut and bolt was much tighter than any other car I owned. The crank pulley bolts especially. Killed quite a few of my spanners but I don't really see the point.

    Yes the the factory manual says 75 lb/ft!

    thats really odd? Sorry about the bum steer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by R8 Dream View Post
    Yes the the factory manual says 75 lb/ft!

    thats really odd? Sorry about the bum steer.
    So the factory manual says 75 ft/lb for the lower arm and 50 ft/lb for the upper arm? That sounds a bit more normal

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    Quote Originally Posted by R8RX View Post
    So the factory manual says 75 ft/lb for the lower arm and 50 ft/lb for the upper arm? That sounds a bit more normal
    My factory manual says 65 and 50 - see post #13 above. My original bushes lasted 40 years and well over 200,000 km. The new ones are only about 15 I think and fine. The only issues I've ever had with the front suspension are ball joints drying out and making sharp cracking noises. I fitted grease nipples and the noise went away.
    JohnW

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    My factory manual says 65 and 50 - see post #13 above. My original bushes lasted 40 years and well over 200,000 km. The new ones are only about 15 I think and fine. The only issues I've ever had with the front suspension are ball joints drying out and making sharp cracking noises. I fitted grease nipples and the noise went away.
    Ok, thank you! I was hoping to fix all this before Christmas, but with -10C in the garage it is not the first thing I think of late in the evening I am also trying to refurbish and convert a steering rack to 2.5 turns.

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    Quote Originally Posted by R8RX View Post
    Ok, thank you! I was hoping to fix all this before Christmas, but with -10C in the garage it is not the first thing I think of late in the evening I am also trying to refurbish and convert a steering rack to 2.5 turns.
    Have a lovely Christmas and I wish you good luck with the work in the New Year. The higher geared steering rack is, at least in my experience, a good modification.

    I can't imagine -10 degrees in my garage. And yes, I'd not be motivated either!! Today we will have 39 degrees so it must be near Christmas!

    Cheers
    JohnW

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    Have a lovely Christmas and I wish you good luck with the work in the New Year. The higher geared steering rack is, at least in my experience, a good modification.

    I can't imagine -10 degrees in my garage. And yes, I'd not be motivated either!! Today we will have 39 degrees so it must be near Christmas!

    Cheers
    Thank you! Have a lovely christmas!

    Almost completed the rack yesterday, so things are going forward, but a little slow.

    Wow, just 45 degrees difference today then
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    Quote Originally Posted by R8RX View Post
    Thank you! Have a lovely christmas!

    Almost completed the rack yesterday, so things are going forward, but a little slow.

    Wow, just 45 degrees difference today then
    Yes, I didn't work much in my garage today either!! Good re the rack. They can be done for right hand drive cars, and I've had a quick rack now for about 5 years. I have found with the R8 that the new Michelins are much lighter in the steering - modern structure inside the tyres I think. When the quick rack first went on, the steering was heavy at slow speed.

    Sorry we missed you when we visited Norway last year!
    JohnW

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    Ha. I changed the brakes (discs and pads) on my in-laws' Yaris at -10 in the garage in Sweden.

    Had the windscreen replaced on my dad's car at -40 in the street. Didn't believe the glue would set, but that stuff they use is hard core. The dude who did it told me he was flat out because with those temperatures everybody's windscreen had cracked just like mine (dad's car, but I was driving it at the time). What can you do? You crank the heat up and have air at 40 degrees or more blowing on the inside and there's -40 outside, of course the glass cracks. The bloke told me he had changed quite a few Aston Martins and Ferraris as well that week. Nobody's perfect, I guess.
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    I'm soft too! Wow.
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    I agree with this method in the absence of factory instruction confirming the other. The idea is to NOT preload the rubber because in one direction it travels too far for the elasticity of the rubber and damages it.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    There's more than one opinion about that... I recall posts about only tightening them when the suspension is loaded and sitting in its normal rest position. I replaced mine about ten years ago and have no idea at what position I tightened them up, but all is sweet to this day. It was probably as you say, at the bottom end of travel with the car jacked up I imagine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    There's more than one opinion about that... I recall posts about only tightening them when the suspension is loaded and sitting in its normal rest position. I replaced mine about ten years ago and have no idea at what position I tightened them up, but all is sweet to this day. It was probably as you say, at the bottom end of travel with the car jacked up I imagine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stuey View Post
    I agree with this method in the absence of factory instruction confirming the other. The idea is to NOT preload the rubber because in one direction it travels too far for the elasticity of the rubber and damages it.
    I agree that the arms need to be in the normal rest position because it can affect the overall ride height if preloaded. I'd be too embarrassed to state how I know this.
    Last edited by 59 Floride; 23rd December 2018 at 02:45 PM.
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