LSD 330 gbox (R8/A110)?
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Thread: LSD 330 gbox (R8/A110)?

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! R8 Dream's Avatar
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    Default LSD 330 gbox (R8/A110)?

    Just a question that I have been curious to know the answer to for a while.

    Was there ever a LSD available for the 330 gbox (to suit R8/10)?

    If so, did the R8G or A110 come with it as a special?

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    Is it available through GBS or Mecaparts or anywhere else?

    Angelo

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    Hi Angelo.

    Hmm. Dunno, but I'd not heard of such a thing from Renault parts. I reckon I'd be going 16TS internals well ahead of LSD. I recall that the 1971 factory R8 Gordinis that could have won a second Australian Rally Championship had a few dnf problems: I read somwhere that this was due to Hewland transmission parts failing and I did wonder whether that was an LSD matter.

    Someone will know the correct answer!
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    Angelo,
    The only LSD diffs that I know of were produced by Hewland and Quaife.

    More info can be obtained from "dauphproto" (Steven Swan, Scotland) as he ran one in his R8G/R5A competition car.

    Ray
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    Thanks Ray.

    I gather that is code for 'expensive'.

    Clearly there is documented evidence for the fitment of an LSD, but in something like an R8, what would be the advantage in say an LSD vs 'normal' or locked diff?

    Has anyone ever experienced the difference (especially in the R8/10?)

    Angelo

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    It has been done.

    I spoke to one chap who rallied an R8 in Canberra who used a 5speed box with an LSD.

    I also chatted with the Bruce Collier who had put LSDs in R8 but he said that they were a bit rough. I also made contact with a crowd in England who made LSDs that could be put into R8s, and yes, it was Hewland from memory.

    The project stalled and there were a lot of Datto 1600s that were going faster and were cheaper to own and run.
    Daily Drivers: R10, R12, R17T(?) Decouvrable

    In the Shed(s):
    R8 (1.4 motor, 4 shock rear end), Dauphine, Pugeot 404

    In the Past:
    Dauphine X2, R10 X lots, R12 X2, R16TS, R17TS

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    Okay memories are coming back...

    The chap I spoke to who rallied one said that after he put the box in his car he noticed that the car seemed to track into corners better, or turn tighter or words to that effect. He felt at the beginining he was running on the inside of corners more.

    The other thing I recall from talking with Bruce Collier was that it was not suited to track work and that when the LSD went into action "you got what you got". By that I'm assuming it was a locking style LSD, probably a little brutal for the, at times, fragile box and casing.

    It was a long time ago.
    Daily Drivers: R10, R12, R17T(?) Decouvrable

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    Hi Angelo,

    I'm sure there will be some out there but it will not be "plug and play". There will be some mods to do to fit it. Unless $ can buy you one.

    On the R8's there are problems such as swing arms. You have to limit the travel to prevent tuck in but at the same time you will lift a wheel prematurely and go nowhere.

    To minimise the above, you will have to go to the front and fit a 25mm anti-rollbar. That will reduce body roll and the result is that the rear wheel won't lift that quick with it's limited travel.

    Then there is a Z-bar that you can fit at the rear which could be better than the thick anti-roll bar in front but to fit this is a major fitting and fabrication exercise. I think Steve Swan has done something like that but he admitted that it was a bugger of a job to find space at the back.

    Then you can fit something like 4CVG has on his 4CV of which I never had the opportunity to use or drive at speed.

    Then you can do the ultimate and lock the diff like I did.(My opinion) It does become an unfriendly car when you're of to the shops for bread and milk. But driven in anger there is little that beats a locked diff. On the other hand, it isn't that bad driving the car to a place far away on the motor way or even in town. It is only bad in a parking lot. It is very satisfactory when you exit a hairpin or a 90 degree bend and you put your foot down and it just hits you in the back as it accelerates out of the corner instead of wheelspinning for a while before the rears get traction. Then hope not to break anything because by that time the engine has picked up speed and the power is there when the wheel gets down on the tarmac and two things can happen. The car can lunge forward or the U-joint, side shaft or output shaft can break.

    This is only from my point of view and experience.

    Regards, Frans
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    Agree with Frans comments on locked diff, good on the track but a handful and very annoying in city driving.
    Angelo, I can lay my hands on a local, as new, Hewland LSD for an R8G if you are interested.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frans View Post
    Hi Angelo,

    I'm sure there will be some out there but it will not be "plug and play". There will be some mods to do to fit it. Unless $ can buy you one.

    On the R8's there are problems such as swing arms. You have to limit the travel to prevent tuck in but at the same time you will lift a wheel prematurely and go nowhere.

    To minimise the above, you will have to go to the front and fit a 25mm anti-rollbar. That will reduce body roll and the result is that the rear wheel won't lift that quick with it's limited travel.

    Then there is a Z-bar that you can fit at the rear which could be better than the thick anti-roll bar in front but to fit this is a major fitting and fabrication exercise. I think Steve Swan has done something like that but he admitted that it was a bugger of a job to find space at the back.

    Then you can fit something like 4CVG has on his 4CV of which I never had the opportunity to use or drive at speed.

    Then you can do the ultimate and lock the diff like I did.(My opinion) It does become an unfriendly car when you're of to the shops for bread and milk. But driven in anger there is little that beats a locked diff. On the other hand, it isn't that bad driving the car to a place far away on the motor way or even in town. It is only bad in a parking lot. It is very satisfactory when you exit a hairpin or a 90 degree bend and you put your foot down and it just hits you in the back as it accelerates out of the corner instead of wheelspinning for a while before the rears get traction. Then hope not to break anything because by that time the engine has picked up speed and the power is there when the wheel gets down on the tarmac and two things can happen. The car can lunge forward or the U-joint, side shaft or output shaft can break.

    This is only from my point of view and experience.

    Regards, Frans
    Hi Frans

    I already run a locked diff with a strong box (with R16 internals) and experience all the short comings you describe driving the car around the shops and carpark. It hops madly and feels very shaky, but on the track it feels great and very sure-footed around the corners sweepers, but I do have the sense at times it still a bit skitsy and I was wondering if an LSD would make this feeling go away.

    Maybe the feeling I get is what you describe as being a wheel lifting?

    I get this awkward sensation that I am going around a LH corner hard with the inner wheel firmly on the ground and the RH off the ground for a second, and then once both wheels on the ground it grips suddenly...I am not sure I am adequately describing the feeling, buts it certainly a feeling like I am on the edge.

    But what about reverting back to the 'normal' drive but retaining the strong box, would the fact that using stronger gears still make it very suitable for track work, or will this mean that 100% of the load would be on a single axel at any one time, but the benefit of the locked diff is that only 50% of the load will ever be on the axel at any time - thus saving the axel from busting?

    Cheers
    Angelo

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    Angelo, that feeling you describe is all about sway bars and damper control. An LSD would make that feeling more pronounced, not better.
    As far as breakages, a locked diff or solid spool with sticky tyres usually puts more load on all the transmission parts than an LSD will.

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    I can see many $$ being spent on an LSD,
    Many $$ being spent on horsepower mods
    AND the sum total will be many $$ spent on broken gearboxes.
    Not pessimistic, just reality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bustamif View Post
    Angelo, that feeling you describe is all about sway bars and damper control. An LSD would make that feeling more pronounced, not better.
    As far as breakages, a locked diff or solid spool with sticky tyres usually puts more load on all the transmission parts than an LSD will.
    I am running an after market (KMAC) front sway bar - not sure thickness right now, but looks a bit bigger than the standard one. Dampers are Koni, but set on the maximum firmness. The front and read have hardly any movement and the who car has been lowered to max possible without riding on bumpers.

    So its about trial and error - or seeking someone who has sorted this setup out before?

    Colliers was mentioned earlier, but any suspension place in Melbourne you might know of with experience with the R8?

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    Hi Angelo, trial and error with setup directed by a suspension guru who can suggest bump/rebound settings on dampers, maybe some expensive fully adjustable ones would be good, spring rates, sway bar sizes, all the usual stuff. Colliers does not do any track setup stuff as far as I am aware. It is really all about planning, going to the track with a list of things to try, go through the list in a methodical way, using the stopwatch and the feel of the car as your guide to what improves it and what does'nt.

    I have a similar problem with my 1650 R8G which gets a little hop and slight wheel spin in a 3rd gear 90kph sweeper at Eastern Creek Amaroo track. A locked diff would fix it but it would make it terrible on the road. I am sure it could be mostly eliminated with expensive damper control but I don't have that much money to spend. All about compromise I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bustamif View Post
    Hi Angelo, trial and error with setup directed by a suspension guru who can suggest bump/rebound settings on dampers, maybe some expensive fully adjustable ones would be good, spring rates, sway bar sizes, all the usual stuff. Colliers does not do any track setup stuff as far as I am aware. It is really all about planning, going to the track with a list of things to try, go through the list in a methodical way, using the stopwatch and the feel of the car as your guide to what improves it and what does'nt.

    I have a similar problem with my 1650 R8G which gets a little hop and slight wheel spin in a 3rd gear 90kph sweeper at Eastern Creek Amaroo track. A locked diff would fix it but it would make it terrible on the road. I am sure it could be mostly eliminated with expensive damper control but I don't have that much money to spend. All about compromise I guess.
    I am fortunate to have fully adjustable Koni's all round, so will look at the settings as I have them all set to the hardest. So yes short of a small ransom, it will be up to me to sort it out, but Frans has suggested a change to the front roll bar, so that might be an easy thing to try first up.

    As I have said, I have the locked diff and although good for track, its a bummer for normal on road driving (make me look like I am skipping along and have bad clutch pedal release technique!).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve K View Post
    I can see many $$ being spent on an LSD,
    Many $$ being spent on horsepower mods
    AND the sum total will be many $$ spent on broken gearboxes.
    Not pessimistic, just reality.
    Yes Steve, what the old saying "Speed is directly proportional to your Spend"

    Maybe after spending the weekend watching the cars at the Geelong Revival, the speed bug has bitten again.

    Cheers
    Angelo

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    Well, that turned up some interesting material!! Thanks guys, very instructive.
    JohnW

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  17. #17
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    Angelo.
    The Konis might be more trouble because I think that with a locked diff you need to get as much body roll as possible so that the inside wheel can have as little weight as possible on it (caused by the bodyroll) and the outer wheel does a 100% of the pulling power. I would not try a thicker anti-roll bar with the locked diff and set the Konis to minimum.
    My car has stock standard suspension with stock no-name brand shocks in. By reducing the weight the coils will become stiffer and by shortening the coils even more stiffer. So I think you shouldn't put stiffer coils in because that will amplify the problem. The more bodyroll you get the more grip on the outside wheel and less on the inside wheel. That will assist the car in turning in. Small boys's pedal cars is a very good example. They drive through one wheel only and if the drive wheel is on the outside the pedal car turns in perfect. If that drive wheel is on the inside, the car understeers completely. You will have best with the locked diff everytime if you can lift the inside wheel.
    I would try and provoke body roll but not through lengthening the rear suspension travel.
    Regards, Frans.

    PS. I run my car with 3mm toe in. It helps the nose to turn in easier.
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    Following up on Frans setup tips, on the car I run with a locked diff I have a very soft front sway bar setting (I have made an adjustable length drop link to soften or stiffen without changing bars). When going from slicks to wets when it rains, I disconnect the front sway bar completely to increase body roll to assist turn in, otherwise it will understeer way too much, especially on tight corners with a locked diff. I run 2 mm toe in total FYI, 1 mm per side, it is easier for me to read than 1.5 as the eyesight is getting worse.

    When I mentioned adjustable shocks I was referring to competition gas units where bump and rebound is adjustable independently with high and low frequency controls available. You could buy a good R10S for the same price as some of those shock setups, like the man said "Speed is directly proportional to your Spend"

    However, some trial and error with creative thinking will always do the job, a $20 welded diff works just the same as a $7,000 titanium spool.
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  19. #19
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    Alpine offered Hewland LSDs for the 353 5-speed gearbox, which also can be fit into a 330 4-speed gearbox, if it's the 2nd generation with 11mm screws at the crownwheel. Hence they themself used for the workscars LSDs with discs made by ZF.

    https://www.leboncoin.fr/equipement_...518254941.htm/

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