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  1. #101
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoBo View Post
    Can't complain about the quality of my old Toyota either and it's great fun to drive as well.

    Maybe we should add owner satisfaction to the equation for mass produced cars? Sure, a Ferrari etc are high quality money pits and no doubt owner satisfaction is also high (going by a n 1 survey of my BIL's 12 cyl.Fazza doing an engine overhaul @ under 100,000km )
    There a always exceptions with every make and sometimes models/engines turn out to be well below expectations going by experiences with a mates Toyota UAV (and Sunroof's) as well as with other makes.

    The Golf is very nice to drive. The loan petrol TSI she had a few months ago when hers was in repair was an exceptionally smooth drive for a small car.

    Don't know the Dacia at all and non of my relos in Europe have one. Must be good cars if they are comparable to Toyota! What's their hybrid model like?
    My mention of the Dacia was not random. I have done a lap of Europe in a Logan wagon in three weeks and can report it feels exactly like my wife's Corolla. It is a car you attach to because you can just not care about it and does everything a car should do without fault. Their sales success tells a story, and I can also report that I have seen them from Stockholm to Rome and from London to Budapest in large numbers, most of them in Germany. Do the Germans not have better quality cars?

    All modern cars are good, so quality is not the problem anymore. They are all reliable, so that's not a problem either. Not all of them are maintenance free though, and I think this is where consumer attention has moved when purchasing.

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    In the example above I can say that if we had to take the Honda in for maintenance, we would have never afforded one. Or the Peugeot. Probably the Toyota as well. We looked at getting a VW Passat, but the price and the service costs scared us off when I realised I am getting too old for crawling under cars. So Toyota it is. So far, so good. If we had the Logan here, I would have bought it in a flash instead of the Toyota. Heaps more room, more simple (if that is possible) and cheap as chips. Almost throw away price.
    JohnW, Sunroof, JoBo and 2 others like this.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  2. #102
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    If I recall the number correctly, Renault's offshoot Dacia, in Romania/Bulgaria, was given the challenge of a small 4-door car for Euro 8,500 and the Logan was the outcome. It was 10-15 years ago I think. They are Renault Corollas IMHO. They are to be seen in so many places, including Peru and other South American countries I'd add. When they hit France, they hit Renault sales quite hard I gather.

    Their Duster model (also sold in Peru badged as a Renault) is a pretty sensible bit of gear too.

    I agree with Schlitz.
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  3. #103
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    Fair enough Schlitz. But when a turbo blows at just over 60 K (1.9 MK V TDI); and a waterpump needs replacing at 90 k {MK VII TDI} that's a bit below expectation these days on a car that costs above average in it's class.
    Both were cars driven by females and not thrashed. Service was done by the dealer as per book on the 'waterpump' one. The other one was serviced by the dealer up to 40 k and then by a VW specialist in Sydney as per book as well.
    "We prefer to believe what we prefer to be true"
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  4. #104
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    I rule out cars with double clutch gearboxes as a first step.
    The modern 8-10 speed torque converter auto makes them unnecessarily complex.......and the Japanese haven’t gone down that path either.


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  5. #105
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    My lap was in a 1.5DCi Logan wagon fully optioned (that means radio, central locking, A/C and power windows basically) in December-January 2012. Car was 6500Euro new, bought by a friend of mine, 60k km on the clock when I drove it. Keeps you warm in nordic climates, cruises at 150km/h comfortably, behaves very well in snow and slippery conditions as long as you're not a bone head (I did get it up to 140km/h on Swedish snow covered freeways when I saw that's what the locals do) and has excellent fuel economy. Starts immediately in well under zero temperatures and keeps you warm very quickly after that, parts and service are everywhere in Europe. What else do you want?

    I am sure some random Toyota would do just as well, no questions about it. Toyota is also very well supported in Europe, so no problems there. But I do have a friend with Prado (bought new) and he does not go to the dealer. Buys OEM parts off the internet (I think Malaysia or some such) and has a friendly mechanic who does the maintenance. He's very happy with it but the reality is that he wouldn't be able to afford it if he went to the dealers. My wife's mother has a Yaris in Sweden and that car goes to the mechanic for anything and everything. I did some work on it (discs, pads, suspension bushings) when there and it was about a thousand dollars cheaper than the dealer. Compare that with the Logan, which had the suspension, brakes, timing belts and a few other bits and bobs replaced on my request (because I knew I was going to do thousands of kilometres in a short time) at the dealer and it cost a smidge over 600 Euro with everything OEM off the shelf in just over two hours while I had a coffee.
    JohnW likes this.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  6. #106
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoBo View Post
    Fair enough Schlitz. But when a turbo blows at just over 60 K (1.9 MK V TDI); and a waterpump needs replacing at 90 k {MK VII TDI} that's a bit below expectation these days on a car that costs above average in it's class.
    Both were cars driven by females and not thrashed. Service was done by the dealer as per book on the 'waterpump' one. The other one was serviced by the dealer up to 40 k and then by a VW specialist in Sydney as per book as well.
    What can I say? Manufacturers are building these days failure points to keep dealers on side. Or maybe yours was a dud. What does the manual say? How long should you expect these things to last? If that is below the factory given lifetime I would take issue with it. If it isn't, well, it was your choice to buy that car.

    As mentioned by others, dealer servicing doesn't mean diddly these days. I only trust what I do. Stuey made a joke some time ago that I am a belts and braces man. Maybe he's right, but like I said, I can't afford it otherwise.

    Just to give you some idea, I wanted to replace a sun visor on wife's Honda at some point. Dealer wanted 70 bucks for it. Left the old one in.

    When doing the alternator maintenance at some other time I found it was on the way out so I checked with the dealer how much.

    Have a guess?



    Wrong. 3200$.

    Guess what? I rebuilt it myself for 300 bucks and it went all the way until the car was sold.

    And so on.

    But absolutely wonderful car. Honestly, my wife loved it and so did I. Good handling, good economy, revved happily to high heaven, no rattles, plastics all good, very quiet on the inside, even the radio worked exceptionally well until my son replaced it with some aftermarket crap. Really, can't fault it. You can't ask for more. But you pay for it. Either with money, or your own time.

    Corolla? ****ed if I know where the fuse box is and I think I checked the oil about a year ago. Not sure.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  7. #107
    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    We'll get back to poor old Carlos in a moment, but here is an advertisement sponsored by a Renault owner in Australia! I have owned only two new modern cars in the last 20 years. The 1998 RX4 and a 2008 Koleos. The RX4 was a lovely car, a new battery at 8 years, one set of front pads and rotors, a crankshaft sensor at 9 years and a couple of sets of tyres in 165k. The RX4 made way for a Koleos all those years ago which so far has had a battery replacement and one set of tyres. I was connned into a set of pads and rotors at about 45K and have never even looked like they need a replacement. My 1974 new R12 wagon went 90k without needing tyres, pads or rotors changed. My local dealer recognises that when a vehicle worth $2500 comes due for a service, the owner does not want to spend half the value of the vehicle on a service, so they change fluids and filters at an appropriate price, because servicing the car by the book is totally uneconomical, even if you can keep the car running and road worthy until you have to stop driving.
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

  8. #108
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    Reminder to myself, come the next ‘fixed price service’, that I must insist that the pads DO NOT need changing at the 45 or 60 thousand service.........nor the wiper blades.........and not a front wheel alignment either. $6-700 is quite enough already!


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    Along similar lines to some comments above, I've just driven a Camry 2.2 that's done 382,000 km and has been serviced by the owner since 60,000km and was amazed by how good it drives. The three speed auto works as I'd have expected it would new, and the engine is smooth, quiet and noise free. The car drives very well indeed, with the only concession to age is a single knock in the rear suspension (it's still on its original shock absorbers) and a rear main seal drip. It has had nothing but oil and coolant changes its whole life. The interior is quite good although some plastics are starting to crack, but this car has not been garaged much. I was quite impressed.


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    Some rubbish cars have done sterling service eg the Fiat 124 based Lada which survived many a winter and the appalling roads of Siberia. A complete lack of technology (emission controls) helps of course.


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    I guess my point was that it drives quite nicely, not just that it is running, so I can see why they are successful in the A to B market.


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  12. #112
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    Coming back to Ghosn, I really regret we don't have any of the Dacia offerings here. Not sure that would bring prices for other brands to more affordable levels, but one can hope. Either way I would get one in a heartbeat at my age. He was/is? really good in feeling what the market would like to see on offer and even though built to a price point, I think their cars are far superior to similarly basic offerings from Asian manufacturers but at much lower prices (in our market).
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    I sometimes think I would like an old fashioned, cheap, simple car with good ground clearance with nothing much more than ‘plip’ as a convenience feature .........or is it just whimsy?.


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  14. #114
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    Well, Dacia is sold in the UK market, so I guess if you really want one at all costs, you might be able to get one from them. I would be curious to see the second hand market prices for these over there now. They should be peanuts.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  15. #115
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    A few years ago I considered buying a base Kangoo as a sort of modern R4, along those lines, and maintaining the heck out of it for 20 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nagaman View Post
    I sometimes think I would like an old fashioned, cheap, simple car with good ground clearance with nothing much more than ‘plip’ as a convenience feature .........or is it just whimsy?.


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  16. #116
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    Me too. If the four-seat one had been made available in Oz, I'd quite likely have done exactly that.
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    JohnW

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  17. #117
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    In general I think most cars are suffering from bad dealer network performance, OEM spare parts set to inflated "Australian pricing standards" and complication of simple servicing by owners that will put pressure (competition on the factory/dealer network) and of course the well known exploitation of vehicle preference propaganda. i.e. spin that the other has some bad defect or just [email protected] and to stay away from them.

    The last is a very powerful tool. now reinforced through social media, with amplified actual complaints from buyers. Some buyers will never be satisfied that their product lives up to whatever prompted them to buy, and of course pressure on dealerships in such a spin driven market may result on bad short term profit based decisions to satisfy investors and bankers. Poor middle management and lack of commitment to the brand and its customers also has a knock on effect, if customers don't have confidence in the product because of over emphasis on marketing spin and cost reduction.


    Nissan had a lesson in lifting product sales and marketing under Ghosn, will Nissan decline as a marketable product once his influence and guidance is removed. Perhaps the key to that is firstly the Japanese home market in the short term and then overseas markets in the long term. If you look at the model that VW introduced to Australia with top to bottom tight control right through to dealing with the owners, that established the brand in Australia, poor product, costs? management damaged the product and while I cannot put an exact date on that I well remember my VW friends that turned away from the product after years of over selling the brand to us.


    A similar thing happened to Peugeot with "Dyed in the wool" owners finding later products didn't really live up to the standards they expected in the day. One friend was a retired Bank of NSW manager who related his Peugeot experience and tale of woe after his new product didn't remain trouble free like his last one had.


    Bad business and trading decisions have a habit of coming back to bite those that don't have the leaders that are needed to hold things together in the auto industry.

    Ken
    Last edited by Kenfuego; 25th February 2019 at 11:42 AM.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenfuego View Post
    One friend was a retired Bank of NSW manager who related his Peugeot experience and tale of woe after his new product didn't remain trouble free like his last one had. Ken
    Ahhh, didn't they become Westpac? So they followed Peugeot's lead? Ha ha ha ha.


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    We are all being prepared for autonomy with lane keep assist, park assist, radar cc, blind spot/360* cameras, f&r sensors and anything else that can be dreamed up as a desirable ‘feature’ for the never ending list.
    I even appreciate now the gutless version if only because it demands attention and judgment.
    Not that I’m getting old and grumpy mind.
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  20. #120
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    Icon5 Ghosts of Ghosn and such like.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuey View Post
    Ahhh, didn't they become Westpac? So they followed Peugeot's lead? Ha ha ha ha.
    He retired early before Westpac was under consideration, must have had a premonition of things to come

    I had the feeling that the Pug he had was a 504 and did half a million miles without a spanner touching it, but that might have been a slight exaggeration You know how those pug guys nostalgically speak about, their past pugs...


    Later Bob Joss a distant relative of my good lady swept in from the USA to take the reigns of the later West Pac Bank, not to claim that he fixed it up like Ghosn or effed up that Bank Made no difference to us we were with the SSB Victoria, one of those State Banks that a Labour Party "worlds best state treasurer" had already killed off after a series of loan and speculative money movements and investments.


    Sad at the time and after the amalgamations the fees charged to fix their bottom line also fixed ours, I had to go down and cancel savings and cheque accounts before they ate every last cent deposited in them with monthly fees still have the cancelled books as a remembrance of self appointed Worlds greatest Labor treasurers who would make us rich or poor as it turned out. Stuey.

    Ken
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nagaman View Post
    We are all being prepared for autonomy with lane keep assist, park assist, radar cc, blind spot/360* cameras, f&r sensors and anything else that can be dreamed up as a desirable ‘feature’ for the never ending list.
    I even appreciate now the gutless version if only because it demands attention and judgment.
    Not that I’m getting old and grumpy mind.
    Thats why driving old cars is so much fun. You still have to use your driving skills.
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  22. #122
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    I think about these things a lot more than I would like, and so far, I can see their undoing is going to be their smartness in the same way pocket calculators have weakened the already weak to the point that they can barely add with or without paper. That in itself is not necessarily a drama. The drama is that if you lose interest in something as you just begin to learn it because you think you got it (when in fact you didn't), you will end up completely incompetent in anything to do with that. In other words, I anticipate that driver aids will end up like GPS. People with poor orientation skills end up in the lake, or going in the wrong direction because they think the GPS knows better and they don't need to think. With the GPS the problem for other road participants is not big. But with driver aids substituted for brains, you will end up in accidents a lot. Which, I think will have a dampening effect on our enthusiasm for these aids and the manufacturer's motivation for adding them to the car.

    A fully automated car is something else entirely, but we're not there yet with the legislation and I don't see that problem cleared soon. Be thankful we live in a country that relies on copying others' homework because it is incapable of doing it out of its own head.
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    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  23. #123
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    Swinburne University transport faculty is across the complexities of full autonomy. Ultimately interfering with the vehicle will be illegal. The internet makes idiots of us and AI will displace us completely unless we DO give a damn beyond MAFS.


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  24. #124
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    What's MAFS?

    You may be right. But if you are, that is a gloomy future we prepare for ourselves.

    Robots have already proven to be more productive, less demanding (no holiday, sick leave, unions, etc, in other words cheaper), more reliable, and ultimately more intelligent than some or most of us. If a robot will have such a law on its side when involved in an accident, that is in my view the first step to making the robot more important than humans. There is a saying in the mining industry - "the dead is always at fault" (and mining companies usually have the paperwork to prove it). Which says that if we would have such a law it is not impossible to imagine this situation: Human interferes with autonomous car, car crashes, kills human. Human at fault by legal default.

    My money sez such a law will not pass hence more delay for autonomous cars.

    If it does pass, I'm out of here.
    Kenfuego likes this.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    I’ve noticed that law faculties are looking at the aspect of exploitation of robot ahem ‘companions’. Indicating the potential need for legislation protecting their ‘rights’.
    Seriously.


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