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Thread: Carlos Ghosn sacked

  1. #51
    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    Never forget that the Nissan employee that came up with the charges in the first place is the man who is expected to replace him at Nissan. A system that incarcerates a suspect without trial until they admit guilt is more founded upon arbitrary be-headings of prisoners of war than it is law.

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    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    Never forget that the Nissan employee that came up with the charges in the first place is the man who is expected to replace him at Nissan.
    Thatís teamwork for you.


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    And history was made today, the winner of the Australia womens was a very proud young Japanese, who now becomes the world No1 Womens tennis player, very appreciative crowd at Rod Laver Court, Melbourne they really got their monies worth in terms of tennis and sportsmanship. May Carlos get treated as well as their tennis champion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    Never forget that the Nissan employee that came up with the charges in the first place is the man who is expected to replace him at Nissan. A system that incarcerates a suspect without trial until they admit guilt is more founded upon arbitrary be-headings of prisoners of war than it is law.
    Only temporarily -
    https://www.motorauthority.com/news/...ance-fractures


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    Yes I spent a bit of time there.

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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nagaman View Post
    And what did we say earlier about that proposed merger? Ghosn has been set up by the worlds most corrupt auto industry.......
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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    HI,
    Japan is hardly the only country which holds accused people in gaol prior to trial, especially when they aren't citizens of that country and are considered a flight risk, as is the case here.

    Ghosn is saying it is all a conspiracy, but the accusations are quite specific about undeclared income, fraudulently passing off personal losses as company losses and so on. In the end it has to turn on company financial records and his bank records, so it is hard to see how he could have been 'set-up'. He may be running a beloved French car company, but that doesn't mean he isn't a crook.

    In light of what VW did, and action against Daimler for cheating about fuel economy and emissions of its vehicles, perhaps it is a bit of a stretch to call Japan the most corrupt car industry?

    Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1972Ren View Post
    HI,
    Japan is hardly the only country which holds accused people in gaol prior to trial, especially when they aren't citizens of that country and are considered a flight risk, as is the case here.

    Ghosn is saying it is all a conspiracy, but the accusations are quite specific about undeclared income, fraudulently passing off personal losses as company losses and so on. In the end it has to turn on company financial records and his bank records, so it is hard to see how he could have been 'set-up'. He may be running a beloved French car company, but that doesn't mean he isn't a crook.

    In light of what VW did, and action against Daimler for cheating about fuel economy and emissions of its vehicles, perhaps it is a bit of a stretch to call Japan the most corrupt car industry?

    Thanks
    Iím not sure how you think that NOT being able to defend yourself with assistance from your counsel (eg CFO) is acceptable.
    Having to plead guilty in order to proceed has absolutely nothing to do with due process in a first world country we are familiar with.
    Imagine if Mary Barra was dragged off her corporate aircraft and treated similarly.


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    My next car will be European or S Korean.
    I wonít buy another Japanese car .


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  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1972Ren View Post
    ..........................In light of what VW did, and action against Daimler for cheating about fuel economy and emissions of its vehicles, perhaps it is a bit of a stretch to call Japan the most corrupt car industry?

    Thanks
    Volkswagen are just one (big) auto manufacturer, not the whole industry. I think you would find it hard to believe the cosy and corrupt relationships between suppliers, buyers and manufacturers in the Land of the Rising Sun, a system that is still in place in all the other Japanese car manufacturers. One of the first things Ghosn did on taking charge of Nissan was to re-model their purchasing system to the Renault Group version which put thousands of big and little noses out of joint, probably including that of Saikawa. The other thing Ghosn did was to introduce the Nissan (Quality) Way to the entire Renault organisation. ( Which probably put a few noses out of joint too!)
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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    I suspect Ghosnís biggest issue is Japanese loss of face.
    The intent is to literally break him.


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    If the prosecution proves its case he'll certainly be broken. It's serious company dishonesty.

    I wonder what the French authorities are looking at.

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    Hey 1972Ren, for a country that prides itself on being super efficient, which they are, I can't understand why the Japanese prosecution is failing to have all the evidence they require to get him into court to face their charges. What are they lacking that stopped them proceeding with prosecuting Ghosn a couple of months ago or even now. I believe the only court matters have been bail applications. Nothing yet "specific" to the allegations.

    Something sloppy is going on. Or underhand...
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    Son did his thesis on this system in Japan ( between disembowelling/reembowelling cars in Oz ) and discussions over the years have proved interesting and instructive.

    The Japanese system is interesting, they have a system of "substituted detention" aka " Daiyo Kangoku"which allows detention for up to about 21 days before which charges should be laid. This can be gamed by the introduction of new charges ( jaywalking etc ) on day 20 , thus resetting the clock., so it can all start again. People have spent up to two years in the back of the police station before trial or release.

    A high value is set on confession, for all the obvious reasons - makes it easier for the cops - but also because of a strong cultural belief in the redemptive value of confession - remember all those images of various CEOs bowing and apologising for the latest atrocity, then walking off scot-free. It is a good system for getting a guilty plea ( 99% conviction rate ) ,but not a good system in which to be an innocent accused. While the system is modelled on the German system of the late 19th century, it lacks many of the checks and balances of current Napoleonic systems

    I have no idea of the rights and wrongs of Carlos' case, but I do not envy him

    Despite which, I find Japan an endlessly beautiful and fascinating place

    Andrew
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  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Watkins View Post
    Son did his thesis on this system in Japan ( between disembowelling/reembowelling cars in Oz ) and discussions over the years have proved interesting and instructive.

    The Japanese system is interesting, they have a system of "substituted detention" aka " Daiyo Kangoku"which allows detention for up to about 21 days before which charges should be laid. This can be gamed by the introduction of new charges ( jaywalking etc ) on day 20 , thus resetting the clock., so it can all start again. People have spent up to two years in the back of the police station before trial or release.

    A high value is set on confession, for all the obvious reasons - makes it easier for the cops - but also because of a strong cultural belief in the redemptive value of confession - remember all those images of various CEOs bowing and apologising for the latest atrocity, then walking off scot-free. It is a good system for getting a guilty plea ( 99% conviction rate ) ,but not a good system in which to be an innocent accused. While the system is modelled on the German system of the late 19th century, it lacks many of the checks and balances of current Napoleonic systems

    I have no idea of the rights and wrongs of Carlos' case, but I do not envy him

    Despite which, I find Japan
    Andrew
    I just wish me old mate Carlos all the best, confronted with a completely out of control legal system. Doubtless, he will find Japan an endlessly beautiful and fascinating place too, in a couple of years time in which he will be found totally innocent, or not. It is disgraceful that their legal system is no different to many middle eastern and other Asian third world countries. No justice for the innocent when a guilty verdict is required by the State......
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by dvr View Post
    What are they lacking that stopped them proceeding with prosecuting Ghosn a couple of months ago or even now.
    What are they lacking?
    1. Evidence
    2. A Confession

    If they get a confession then they won't need evidence.
    A whistleblower and/or Nissan management allegedly handed over the evidence in November.
    The only thing missing appears to be a confession.
    "I cannot help but notice that there is no problem between us that cannot be solved by your departure. Mark Twain"

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    The forensic accountants will already have evidence for the state prosecutor or the case wouldn't have got this far. Japan doesn't convict on confessions unless thay can be verified, and if they contain information only the guilty person could know they act to moderate a sentence as I understand it.

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    "The only thing missing appears to be a confession."

    For me that consideration is akin to the brutalization of allied POWs because they didn't do the "honorable" thing and commit harikari after their defeat by the imperial army.

    If the evidence is irrefutable the need for a confession isn't needed.

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    A confession is a good start to an investigation, but not the be-all-and-end-all, as all good investigators are taught. But that might be different in totalitarian dictator run countries, where such niceties don't matter..

  21. #71
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    This is one of those delightful never-ending investigations that will made into a TV doco by Michael Moore or Channel Nine, probably before Ghosn ever goes to trail.............
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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  23. #73
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    And they are still slipping additional, exquisitely timed charges into the mix to ensure he enjoys the maximum hospitality of the Japanese prison system possible.
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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    His calm and organised demeanour must be a worry to them.


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    More on Japanís Ďhostageí justice system -
    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-47113189


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