Heater Box Permanent Removal 12/15/17
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Thread: Heater Box Permanent Removal 12/15/17

  1. #1
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Default Heater Box Permanent Removal 12/15/17

    Just wondering how you went and bled your cooling system after you removed the heater core up under the dash?

    There is a bleed valve on the drivers right that is near enough the highest part of the system, once that comes out the highest part will actually be the main engine block hose, which sits above the radiator cap.

    My heater core isn't leaking, but I confess I'm sick of the hose running along the side of the block diagonally up in the way.

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    I can live without a heater, and the fan blower / cable linkage that adjusted the tap is fsked anyway, so out it all comes?

    As for blanking of the plumbing, did you all just obtain an appropriate size blanking hose and tie of the system, or did you still need to maintain a circuit? :S


    Also bonus example of why these rust, this is 6months worth it crap collected, and it's been in a car port most of the time.

    https://photos.app.goo.gl/U7SMvexn6U15YFMd6
    https://photos.app.goo.gl/BZpWCs5qFWNdXmeLA
    https://photos.app.goo.gl/oBt3117A7Ycrs1w57

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  2. #2
    COL
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    Hi Bowie

    Get a pair of these and blank off the water circuit.

    https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/WATER-16...-/291779114116

    I would leave the fan in place even though usually makes more noise than actual air flow but it does help a little on those days you are stuck in traffic and the screen does fog.

    I would also leave the air flow flaps and dash controls in place as you will be able to control where the outside air goes to in the cabin.
    Regards Col

    1973 Renault R12 Station Wagon
    1976 Renault R12 Station Wagon
    1995 Renault Laguna V6
    2002 Renault Laguna V6
    1973 Alpine A110

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  3. #3
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Ah right so I can just install those blocks on the respective outlet and inlet and be done with with the rest of the system. I' still worried about bleeding it, perhaps I could install some hose for that very purpose, then leave it wound up in the bay when not needed?

    When I picked up the car I giggled at the 12v dash fan the prior owner installed. It makes sense now as in inspecting everything, well the blower fan was stuffed, and the linkages that connects from drivers right to the flap are broken. Chunks of the wheels missing etc etc.

    So.. I may just permanently open the flaps and direct as much as I can to the screen and take the rest of it out. As I have decided that flap control makes an excellent spot for a kill switch

    https://photos.app.goo.gl/21dDRt1KjnjNVde96

    Hehehe

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

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    COL
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    Bleeding will not be a problem, the air bleeder that is up on the right hand side of the car is there to bleed the air from the heater matrix.

    That control that you have shown in the link in the above post does not control the air flaps, it controls the heater water valve.
    The heater matrix has two pipes running through it, one for the windscreen and one for the feet.
    Those lines that you see marked on the dash indicate how much and where the water is directed.
    Fully clock wise no water flows through either of the pipes in the heater
    The 1st line you will get warm air to the feet and cold to the face
    The 2nd line hot air to feet and warm air to face
    Fully counter clock wise hot air to feet and face

    You will not need this if you are deleting the heater.

    The two leavers that are above the ash tray control the flaps
    Top lever controls the flap to the face/windscreen (left fully close & right fully open)
    Bottom lever controls the flap for the feet (left fully close & right fully open)
    Regards Col

    1973 Renault R12 Station Wagon
    1976 Renault R12 Station Wagon
    1995 Renault Laguna V6
    2002 Renault Laguna V6
    1973 Alpine A110

    http://alpine-a110.weebly.com/

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    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
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    Not to mention the legality of needing a demister for registration purposes.
    driven and bowie like this.
    KB


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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    I was going to add pretty much the same things.

    Manuals are very good, but they don't warn you of problems that did not exist on the assembly line.

    I would first check the block to make sure it's ready to go. This includes corrosion at the liner base, straightness of the crank tunnel, roundness of bearing blocks, deck height/flatness/straightness. If any machining is necessary better do it before you start to put stuff in.

    This means you will need to do some test assembly with the liners in and checking protrusion height as well as liner seat sealing, block deck height/straightness/flatness.

    How's the crank? All good? Checked?

    Camshaft?

    Rocker arms? These can have side play on the shafts. The shafts may be worn, or the rocker arms, or both. What's the state of the pushing pads on the rocker arms? All good?

    Tappets need to be perfectly flat. Are they? Is the case hardened surface intact?

    And so on.

    The book(s) don't help much with any of this, but if you have experience as you say and a handy engine shop around the corner, shouldn't be a drama.
    Bustamif likes this.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    COL
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    I was going to add pretty much the same things.

    Manuals are very good, but they don't warn you of problems that did not exist on the assembly line.

    I would first check the block to make sure it's ready to go. This includes corrosion at the liner base, straightness of the crank tunnel, roundness of bearing blocks, deck height/flatness/straightness. If any machining is necessary better do it before you start to put stuff in.

    This means you will need to do some test assembly with the liners in and checking protrusion height as well as liner seat sealing, block deck height/straightness/flatness.

    How's the crank? All good? Checked?

    Camshaft?

    Rocker arms? These can have side play on the shafts. The shafts may be worn, or the rocker arms, or both. What's the state of the pushing pads on the rocker arms? All good?

    Tappets need to be perfectly flat. Are they? Is the case hardened surface intact?

    And so on.

    The book(s) don't help much with any of this, but if you have experience as you say and a handy engine shop around the corner, shouldn't be a drama.
    Schlitz I think you have answered the 807-13 thread in the wrong spot.
    Regards Col

    1973 Renault R12 Station Wagon
    1976 Renault R12 Station Wagon
    1995 Renault Laguna V6
    2002 Renault Laguna V6
    1973 Alpine A110

    http://alpine-a110.weebly.com/

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by renault8&10 View Post
    Not to mention the legality of needing a demister for registration purposes.
    Ah yes the function of the demister, I best check that. Thank you!

    And Col! Thank you again for explaining those various parts.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
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    You could always buy a cheap hair dryer from Kmart and hard wire it in!
    240v without an invertor might be a problem.
    KB


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    Quote Originally Posted by COL View Post
    Schlitz I think you have answered the 807-13 thread in the wrong spot.
    Eff me dead, Col!! You're right.

    But I think it is something to do with these post quick reply links my computer seems to have problems with.

    I swear.

    Let's leave it here as testimony that idiocy is a time honoured internet forum tradition.
    bowie likes this.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger! G4ME's Avatar
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    Default Heater Box Permanent Removal 12/15/17

    My 17 heater has been removed. It was useless in winter and added heat in summer. After a few cold MELBOURNE winters I added a heater built for hot rods. Works a treat. Uses the old fan. I can send a pic when I get the car back..
    This what I bought
    https://www.t7design.co.uk/


    Cheers
    Paul


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    Last edited by G4ME; 7th October 2018 at 10:41 PM.
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  12. #12
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Ah please do Paul. Yes that sounds perfect.

    I'm imaging a thin 12v panel heater sitting somewhere near the fan on the right?

    I took the heater core and plumbing out today either way, it was expectantly full of dirt and mud.

    If anyone one wants any the clips / hoses / core, let me know and I'll keep it out of the bin.

    https://photos.app.goo.gl/D6Jvz9dxCb8nGZsR7

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

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    1000+ Posts REN TIN TIN's Avatar
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    You could try leaving the disconnected heat core on place and using Peltier Modules to heat it.
    Don't know if it will work but it wouldn't need much in the way of modification.
    Only thing is that they'd likely draw a fair bit of current so if you're running a standard alternator you might be struggling on cold rainy night (you'd be struggling anyway with the 35amp alternator).

    Why pull the heater core out anyway. If nothing else is can provide some additional engine cooling and even here in Brisbane a demister is a must-have.
    "I cannot help but notice that there is no problem between us that cannot be solved by your departure."

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    With it's racing seat, I'm only driving it to and from track days and other events. It's my sometimes car. And In the past 3 years of owning I've never been in a situation where I've needed the demister even when driving it semi regularly on weekends.

    Anyways, Core was full of crap, it's pretty beaten up. I'll investigate the min required for rego purposes (if it ever gets noticed, I don't think anyone has asked me to turn my demister on ever) and go from there.

    If it's somehow horrible in the meantime, window nets and open windows will take care of any extra airflow I may need during an event.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

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    COL
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowie View Post
    With it's racing seat, I'm only driving it to and from track days and other events. It's my sometimes car. And In the past 3 years of owning I've never been in a situation where I've needed the demister even when driving it semi regularly on weekends.

    Anyways, Core was full of crap, it's pretty beaten up. I'll investigate the min required for rego purposes (if it ever gets noticed, I don't think anyone has asked me to turn my demister on ever) and go from there.

    If it's somehow horrible in the meantime, window nets and open windows will take care of any extra airflow I may need during an event.
    I rarely use the heater in my R12 as well accept in winter when it is slightly cracked on just to take the chill off the air coming in.

    With the way the R12 heating/ventilation system is set up means that there is cold air going to the wind screen.

    I find that my R12 only fogs up when its raining and i'm travelling slowly, so what I do is shut off air to the feet (move bottom flap lever to the far left) open air to the windscreen (top flap lever to the far right) and then crack the drivers window and that lets enough air flow over the windscreen to clear it.

    I leave the heater off because it is not going to work until the engine gets up to operating temp which usually takes a couple of Km.

    I rarely use the fan as it is noisy and makes very little difference once underway.
    Regards Col

    1973 Renault R12 Station Wagon
    1976 Renault R12 Station Wagon
    1995 Renault Laguna V6
    2002 Renault Laguna V6
    1973 Alpine A110

    http://alpine-a110.weebly.com/

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    I went a slightly different way with mine. I left the heater matrix in place but disconnected with the flaps permanently open to the screen and closed to the feet, and the standard fan is also still in place but that's mainly out of laziness.
    I used a vintage air a/c and heater combo but lost the glove box and had to install a modified LHD wiper mechanism as a result. I also then installed shortened R16 dash vents to keep it period correct so I now have a very efficient heating and a/c system that is all electronically controlled with servos that can divert the air flow through pipes to the dash vents, screen demister or feet. And all this only cost me a moderate fortune!
    My thought with just blanking the heater inlet and outlet on the pump is that there may be little air lock. It may not effect anything, but for the sake of a little loop of hose I'd probably keep it flowing myself.
    As the car isn't finished yet I'm just assuming all my systems work.
    bowie likes this.

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts REN TIN TIN's Avatar
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    Bowie, your plenum is still going to fill up with leaves, removing the heater core isn't going to stop leaves. Try putting some flyscreen mesh under the vent in the scuttle panel (aluminium mesh is best as it holds it's shape).

    Yes the R12 fan makes more noise than wind and once you're moving at a reasonable pace the air coming in the vent is enough for a decent airflow without the fan. But at low speed the air does need some help and a feeble fan is better than none.
    I find that it best to leave the screen vent on and the floor vent off but even now in October I still need the demister most mornings.
    But my car lives outside so does get cold (or as cold as it gets in Brisbane) overnight. When it rains the windscreen also fogs up so the heat and fan go on.

    Wow 3006882 that sounds like some set up you got, would love to see so photographs of the installation. As you've 'lost the glove box' I presume you have one of the later R12's or Virage with the glove box in the centre of the parcel shelf.

    Blanking the heater hose outlets shouldn't be a problem. After all, when the heater is off it's effectively blanked off anyway with no flow through the circuit. With a loop you're bypassing the radiator and feeding hot coolant back into the motor. This is okay when you want to warm the motor up quickly but not so good when it's already hot, e.g. stuck in traffic on a hot day. The heater core is not as efficient as a radiator but it does some cooling.

    Cheers
    RTT
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    I donít understand.. renault 12 heaters were great when working properly and didnít take much effort to make them work. Renault 17 on the other hand were rubbish as they had too much air coming in to be able to heat efficiently. On Paulís r17 the unit installed is compact and the air outlet pipes can be directed to the original outlets for windscreen easily. It uses its own fan so you can do away with the original one, still I think on a 12 youíd be better to fix the original one.
    simca1100 likes this.

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts REN TIN TIN's Avatar
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    In all my 12's I've never had a problem with the heater core or tap, either leaking, jamming, silting up, etc.
    They work sort of okay and do heat efficiently (for the 3 or 4 months of the year that one needs a heater).

    The way I see it, there are two issues with the standard R12 heater.

    1. The fan is feeble. The plenum is such a large space that the fan is rather underpowered to push any meaningful volume of air through the vents. So you get a trickle of air along the entire length, not a substantial airflow through a couple of vents. If the air control flaps on the plenum are not working properly, like most of them are now, you lose more air leaking past the flaps.

    2. The design is very much for LHD. With the fan on the right, our RHD version seem to get very little air on the RH 1/3 of the windscreen. i.e. where we drivers need it. Our passenger side seems to get more air.

    Driving along at speed the airflow is pretty good, it's just when you need the fan, like when you're stuck in traffic, that it's inadequate.

    The R16's were similar but they appeared to have a better fan that moved more air then the 12.

    But, if you don't want a heater core then it's your call.
    I'd suggest you blank-off the the heater outlets not by-pass and close-off the plenum where the heater hoses were located.

    I remember the good ol' days of driving around without a heater-demister in my Holdens and Valiants and they came from the factory like that, heaters were an optional extra. It wasn't until the 70's that they had heater/demisters as standard so it's no big deal not having a heater. Just keep a cloth on hand to wipe down the inside of the windscreen when it fogs up.

    Cheers
    RTT
    "I cannot help but notice that there is no problem between us that cannot be solved by your departure."

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    Quote Originally Posted by bowie View Post
    Ah please do Paul. Yes that sounds perfect.

    I'm imaging a thin 12v panel heater sitting somewhere near the fan on the right?

    I took the heater core and plumbing out today either way, it was expectantly full of dirt and mud.

    If anyone one wants any the clips / hoses / core, let me know and I'll keep it out of the bin.

    https://photos.app.goo.gl/D6Jvz9dxCb8nGZsR7
    Took a while but here's the photo of the T7 heater where the old heater used to be.
    Cheers...Paul
    Heater Box Permanent Removal 12/15/17-img_1634.jpg
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    an effective, fan-boosed demister is required in all cars from 1971 in Australia. ( ADR)

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    I have recently added a thermo fan. But being a but nervous about it and cooling I like to use the heater as extra cooling.

  23. #23
    COL
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    Quote Originally Posted by IThompson View Post
    I have recently added a thermo fan. But being a but nervous about it and cooling I like to use the heater as extra cooling.
    No need to be nervous about adding a thermo fan to an R12, if the radiator and thermostat are in good condition; and you have bled the system properly you won't have any problems.
    Regards Col

    1973 Renault R12 Station Wagon
    1976 Renault R12 Station Wagon
    1995 Renault Laguna V6
    2002 Renault Laguna V6
    1973 Alpine A110

    http://alpine-a110.weebly.com/

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