R10 with an R12 motor
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  1. #1
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    Default R10 with an R12 motor

    My R10 has an R12 motor and the clutch slips. The clutch parts are R10. I have changed the pressure plate, fly wheel, and clutch plate. The adjustment has plenty of slack. But it still slips. The parts were second hand but looked ok. I have another new clutch plate but my question is.... is it because it is an R10 160mm clutch driven with a 12 motor? Who else has a 12 motor driving an R10 clutch and does it slip?

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    COL
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    I would think an R10 clutch would be a little small for an R12 motor, but the only time I have had a clutch slip in an R12 is when I have had a gearbox input shaft leak.
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    Hi Sunroof
    I don't have 'the' answer. But my memory of lots of years ago, tells me that there were several types of clutches and sizes fitted. They were all a bit 'fragile' if thrashed. Those flywheels with the stepped surfaces were a pain and you needed to be careful with mixing and matching (or resurfacing also) to get it right or they slipped.
    I had a couple of 12s too and they also had fragile clutches in them too. Not much extra bite for thrashing either. When we did the performance 750G we had a special bigger clutch built to take the power to get over the problems. From memory a 200mm B&D.
    Cheers
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    Quote Originally Posted by COL View Post
    I would think an R10 clutch would be a little small for an R12 motor, but the only time I have had a clutch slip in an R12 is when I have had a gearbox input shaft leak.
    What I didn't say was that there was a complete engine swap I do have to admit that in both cases there is some oil leakage from the main seal. I will replace that again even though it was new. I also fitted a new water pump at the same time as I swapped engines and the pump always leaked. I have taken it off and I believe the gasket that came with the pump was weeping and porus. Then when I removed the pump despite being no more than 12 months on the car and with nice green coolant it has rotted in two spots almost through the case. I have filled it with epoxy metal that supposedly will withstand 550 degrees F. Probably cheap pump, but made in Italy.

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    A standard 10 clutch is barely up to the task with a slightly warm 10 engine when you give it some welly, so a used clutch+water leak+oil leak = slipping clutch when you are being pushed along by a 12 motor.
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    Default R10 with an R12 motor

    A couple of things come to mind.
    The first and most common issue is to ensure the clutch cable is not too tight. At rest the lead swagged end should have 2-3mm play. Any tighter and it will continue slipping after gear change.

    You did not say but what gnat are you using? The early or late 330?

    I ran the late330 gbox (identified with 4 small bolts on the cover plate underneath) with 1.3 R12 engine and Weber twin downdraft and it ran very well!

    So with early 330 gbox using standard clutch you may be overpowering it with the R12 engine and causing slipping on a used clutch.


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    Last edited by R8 Dream; 22nd September 2018 at 05:39 PM.
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    Sunroof,

    Also check for free-play of the clutch fork not just the cable. It's possible you have an odd throw out bearing that doesn't belong in there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 59 Floride View Post
    Sunroof,

    Also check for free-play of the clutch fork not just the cable. It's possible you have an odd throw out bearing that doesn't belong in there.
    Yer thanks, but done that. What does the Floride have?

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    Quote Originally Posted by R8 Dream View Post
    A couple of things come to mind.
    The first and most common issue is to ensure the clutch cable is not too tight. At rest the lead swagged end should have 2-3mm play. Any tighter and it will continue slipping after gear change.

    You did not say but what gnat are you using? The early or late 330?

    I ran the late330 gbox (identified with 4 small bolts on the cover plate underneath) with 1.3 R12 engine and Weber twin downdraft and it ran very well!

    So with early 330 gbox using standard clutch you may be overpowering it with the R12 engine and causing slipping on a used clutch.


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    A late 330. But its good to hear yours was ok.

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    Hi
    If the rear main weeps a bit of oil it should not get on the clutch faces. The flywheel is designed to prevent that happening. It collects any oil and is drilled to throw it out the back. All well designed motors have that design. Only large amounts of oil will be a cause of problems. Some old engines did not have real seals but just scrolls and a close fit
    Gearbox input shaft seal leaks can cause more problems as they can run along the shaft to the clutch plate.
    Jaahn
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunroof View Post
    Yer thanks, but done that. What does the Floride have?
    My Floride has a 1.4 with standard clutch and no slip.

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    Thanks Greg of 50 Reno for you PM. Thanks all you guys for input. Jaahn it isn't oily but there is an oily looking film. I will replace the seal, check for wear, pull the sump off put a new gasket on with plenty of goo. Whack in the new clutch plate. The input shaft has no leak. I'll check my container for 12 stuff but don't expect to find any. Pick up the seal Monday put it all back together and all being well drive it to the club meeting Wednesday.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunroof View Post
    Thanks Greg of 50 Reno for you PM. Thanks all you guys for input. Jaahn it isn't oily but there is an oily looking film. I will replace the seal, check for wear, pull the sump off put a new gasket on with plenty of goo. Whack in the new clutch plate. The input shaft has no leak. I'll check my container for 12 stuff but don't expect to find any. Pick up the seal Monday put it all back together and all being well drive it to the club meeting Wednesday.
    My clutch was slipping earlier this year with my 1.4 at sudden acceleration. It ended up being a pressure plate that was not clamping sufficiently and under load slipped. Changed it with a HD LUK unit and now no slipping at any acceleration.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunroof View Post
    Thanks Greg of 50 Reno for you PM. Thanks all you guys for input. Jaahn it isn't oily but there is an oily looking film. I will replace the seal, check for wear, pull the sump off put a new gasket on with plenty of goo. Whack in the new clutch plate. The input shaft has no leak. I'll check my container for 12 stuff but don't expect to find any. Pick up the seal Monday put it all back together and all being well drive it to the club meeting Wednesday.
    Hi Sunroof
    Note when removing the old pressure plate how many turns needed to loosen the pressure plate. When you put the new plate in and the pressure plate on, compare how many turns you have to do up the bolts. This will give you an idea of the clamping force.

    Most diaphram spring pressure plates will bottom out, and loose clamping force before the plate is on the rivets. Not like the older coil spring units.
    jaahn

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    Searched in the container found 17TS and R15 pressure plates and clutch plates and a plastic bag that said 1.4. There was a clutch plate plus pressure plate and a fly wheel. Once I got them out in the light of day discovered my joy was premature. It was from a 10. Oh well I can buy a pressure plate and clutch plate but still would need a drive shaft and fly wheel. If it continues to slip then that is what I will have to do.

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    G'day Rob,

    I'm not really sure what you are after but I have this used kit available for you if it will work. Don't forget that the 1.4 and 1.3 engines had different sized clutches but I'm not too sure what this one is.

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    std. R12 is 170mm diameter. 1.4 is 180mm
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    A 180mm clutch from a 1.4 can be fitted to your R12 flywheel after the large outer rim area is removed on a lathe, and would also require redrilling and tapping for the pressure plate bolts and some refacing work. The step on the flywheel face is very important. Lightening the flywheel gives better acceleration. As I remember R10 is 160mm, R12 is 170mm, 1.4 is 180mm, and as has been said, the smaller clutches were only adequate.

    Bit slow. I started typng this 3 hrs ago, went shopping, and didn't look at what had been said in the meantime.
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    Thanks for the offer Graham. I will put it back as I have mentioned but if it still slips then I will take up your offer. I will also have to source a fly wheel. Still working on my lathe Alan.

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    If you take the clutch assembly and flywheel to any clutch place they should be able to check the clamp pressure. I have found the Verto/Valeo pressure plates have less clamp than the Sachs ones for the same car. I always liked the Valeo clutch plates over the Sachs, as I thought they took up more smoothly.

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    We're away so I can't check, but I'm pretty sure my R10 1300 motor has a 170 mm clutch. Back in the day, putting R12 motors into R10s was pretty common and they weren't exactly over-engineered but behaved. I suspect you should be able to get the standard size clutch not to slip but if you were racing it you'd want to upgrade. Alan's comments about the Sachs unit were interesting - I've only had Renault or Valeo, never a problem but of course not R12 power...
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan moore View Post
    If you take the clutch assembly and flywheel to any clutch place they should be able to check the clamp pressure. I have found the Verto/Valeo pressure plates have less clamp than the Sachs ones for the same car. I always liked the Valeo clutch plates over the Sachs, as I thought they took up more smoothly.
    Ditto re: Valeo clutch less clamp pressure compared to LUK p.p.

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    Well a new 160mm clutch plate that is .5 mm thicker than the sliping one. Another used pressure plate. And a different fly wheel that the surface protrudes 1 mm further out than the surface on my orginal fly wheel. So all in all a gain of 1.5mm and there is no slippage. Just out of interest, the early R1192 1289cc R10s had a 160mm clutch plate. So the 10 is back on the road and the newish water pump still leaks although it doesn't seem to be from the seal. I can live with the amount that has leaked so far so long as it doesn't get any worse. Has any one ever pressed off the fan drive plate and looked at the seals or replaced them?

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    I concur with these comments, as I experienced a problem mismatching a later type pressure plate but using a carbon throwout which resulted in clutch slip. Now with the correct roller bearing and pressure plate, even with the extra power of the Gordini engine, it copes easily.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunroof View Post
    Well a new 160mm clutch plate that is .5 mm thicker than the sliping one. Another used pressure plate. And a different fly wheel that the surface protrudes 1 mm further out than the surface on my orginal fly wheel. So all in all a gain of 1.5mm and there is no slippage. Just out of interest, the early R1192 1289cc R10s had a 160mm clutch plate. So the 10 is back on the road and the newish water pump still leaks although it doesn't seem to be from the seal. I can live with the amount that has leaked so far so long as it doesn't get any worse. Has any one ever pressed off the fan drive plate and looked at the seals or replaced them?
    Never done it with an R8/10 pump but you do see kits on ebay from time to time. You might find the leak stops with more use. Should I bring coolant next year?

    Checked the R10 1300 genuine clutch by the way: 170 mm.

    Cheers
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