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  1. #26
    COL
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    Quote Originally Posted by saje View Post
    Well my search for engine and gearbox weights have not born me any fruits. Does anyone know what a Renault 12 engine and or box weighs please?
    Quote Originally Posted by COL View Post
    There is thread on here somewhere that has some of that info in it. Can't remember which thread off the top of my head, but will have a look when I get a spare moment.
    Found it:

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    Renault 16TS Engine weight ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by COL View Post
    I use Mann Filters, these are German made. I bought a bulk lot from Sydney Filters ages ago. The part number is W77
    Correct. I have a few of them too.
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    Easy upgrades include, 5 speed gearbox from R17TS/G, vented discs from R15/17. Dual vacuum unit from R17TS/G. Then of course the 807/44 etc engines. Then with some money they can go up to almost 2 litres. Also160 bhp is possible with under 1600cc engines. Plenty of experience on here with any mods.

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    O K, so got a Sakura oil filter from evilbay for $24 delivered. Wasn't sure about Sakura but reviews seemed good.
    Weight seems to range from 85kg to 116kg for engine alone. Ad another 35ish kg for the box and we're looking at close to 150kg for 60 to 80hp. Read one of Frans 807 build threads and looks like several thousand ($1200 in webers alone) for about 130 to 150 highly strung (on the track) hp. This might be heresy to the French car lovers here (though rest of mechanicals would remain R12) but on a purely practical level, seems i can get stock reliable 160hp, albeit with a drop in torque, from a 1000cc motorbike engine with a 60kg drop in weight for about $1200. Power to weight would go from 1:0.127 to 1: 0.39 , a tripling with nice weight reduction and highly reliable. Anyway, this is dreaming further down the 'track'.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunroof View Post
    Easy upgrades include, 5 speed gearbox from R17TS/G, vented discs from R15/17. Dual vacuum unit from R17TS/G. Then of course the 807/44 etc engines. Then with some money they can go up to almost 2 litres. Also160 bhp is possible with under 1600cc engines. Plenty of experience on here with any mods.
    I don't think a 365 box is going to be cheap even if he found one.
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    Not long ago bought a Weber look a like from China fo $200 delivered. It looks great.

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    Quote Originally Posted by saje View Post
    O K, so got a Sakura oil filter from evilbay for $24 delivered. Wasn't sure about Sakura but reviews seemed good.
    Weight seems to range from 85kg to 116kg for engine alone. Ad another 35ish kg for the box and we're looking at close to 150kg for 60 to 80hp. Read one of Frans 807 build threads and looks like several thousand ($1200 in webers alone) for about 130 to 150 highly strung (on the track) hp. This might be heresy to the French car lovers here (though rest of mechanicals would remain R12) but on a purely practical level, seems i can get stock reliable 160hp, albeit with a drop in torque, from a 1000cc motorbike engine with a 60kg drop in weight for about $1200. Power to weight would go from 1:0.127 to 1: 0.39 , a tripling with nice weight reduction and highly reliable. Anyway, this is dreaming further down the 'track'.
    NAH never 116 kgs. 160 hp isn't a stressed engine. More than that may be.

    As you want a motor bike engine go for it.

  8. #33
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunroof View Post
    NAH never 116 kgs. 160 hp isn't a stressed engine. More than that may be.

    As you want a motor bike engine go for it.
    Agree with Sunroof, that is a completely different league and not much help from here at AF.

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    Young enough to do it anyway.

  9. #34
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    Hmmm, a Chinese weber for $200. How does it perform?
    Got the 116kg from another thread, how far wrong is this for the 810-05 engine? Not knowing the myriad variations was assuming the 85kg was the alloy block and another comment mentioned 20kg more do assumed this was the iron block.
    What do the larger capacity engines put out stock, what would be the cheaper ones to choose and what kind of price would i pay for one a running one if it was available . Also what would i get for a running stock 810-05? Haven't seen any on AF for sale.
    Thanks again for all the input and sorry for so many questions.

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    PM sent.
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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by saje View Post
    O K, so got a Sakura oil filter from evilbay for $24 delivered. Wasn't sure about Sakura but reviews seemed good.
    Weight seems to range from 85kg to 116kg for engine alone. Ad another 35ish kg for the box and we're looking at close to 150kg for 60 to 80hp. Read one of Frans 807 build threads and looks like several thousand ($1200 in webers alone) for about 130 to 150 highly strung (on the track) hp. This might be heresy to the French car lovers here (though rest of mechanicals would remain R12) but on a purely practical level, seems i can get stock reliable 160hp, albeit with a drop in torque, from a 1000cc motorbike engine with a 60kg drop in weight for about $1200. Power to weight would go from 1:0.127 to 1: 0.39 , a tripling with nice weight reduction and highly reliable. Anyway, this is dreaming further down the 'track'.
    Hi saje
    I do not think you are comparing the power to weight correctly. The weight to compare is the total weight of the car with driver for both situations. EG the car wet may be currently 500KG + driver. With the motorbike engine it might be 440 Kg + driver. So actually only a much smaller % reduction not giving a 'trippling' of the power to weight ratio.
    Just saying !! What gearbox would you use ?? The overall gearing would need to be twice that of the 12 gearbox/diff to work the motor bike engine effectively in its rev range. Not sure how you might do that.
    Jaahn

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    Quote Originally Posted by jaahn View Post
    Hi saje
    I do not think you are comparing the power to weight correctly. The weight to compare is the total weight of the car with driver for both situations. EG the car wet may be currently 500KG + driver. With the motorbike engine it might be 440 Kg + driver. So actually only a much smaller % reduction not giving a 'trippling' of the power to weight ratio.
    Just saying !! What gearbox would you use ?? The overall gearing would need to be twice that of the 12 gearbox/diff to work the motor bike engine effectively in its rev range. Not sure how you might do that.
    Jaahn
    Hi Jaahn,
    BEKs (bike engined cars - are a very common configuration especially in hillclimb cars, formula 1000, etc. Calculations were based on the current car weight including current 60hp R12 engine/box versus a 160/180hp litre bike engine (in which the 6 speed sequential box is integral, this drives a chain driving a sprocket coupled diff centre mounted on chassis via pillow block bearings. Relatively simple set up, very light and final drive ratio infinitely variable via sprocket changes. Though you are correct, i forgot to include driver weight in calculations.
    But obviously if i can just bolt on a higher output budget Renault engine this would be much easier. I can just see myself getting a bit tired of 60hp

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    In it's current form it has history. Would be a shame to change it. Or if it was kept all together, that wouldn't be so bad.
    But who am I to comment. Sorry
    “Listen very carefully, I shall say this only once.” Cheers. John

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shoji View Post
    In it's current form it has history. Would be a shame to change it. Or if it was kept all together, that wouldn't be so bad.
    But who am I to comment. Sorry
    Like a Renault 17 TL????
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    As others have hinted at, there aren't many period engines that would not require work to get near 100hp.

    Having said that, there is a bit of work going on with fitting latter twin cam Clio engines (k4m k4j etc etc) to those standard 12/10/8 gearboxes.

    I think we decided a custome flywheel to assist in lining up a starter motor (although you could push start that thing) and did we have to change the input shaft? The bell housing is unchanged and lines up (which means you are half way there)

    All engine mounting points would change, but it sounds like you could muster that.
    Last edited by bowie; 17th August 2018 at 01:09 PM.

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  16. #41
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    And yes! Holy heck that thing is super cool!

    Just look at that front suspension being used in the rear like it should

    Also, I like to think this is really what a 12 looks like after all the panels are rusted free Into the universe
    Last edited by bowie; 17th August 2018 at 01:10 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nauli View Post
    Like a Renault 17 TL????
    The 17 that has two engines
    “Listen very carefully, I shall say this only once.” Cheers. John

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shoji View Post
    The 17 that has two engines
    Twice the power....though we digress from the original post here!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by saje View Post
    Hi Jaahn,
    BEKs (bike engined cars - are a very common configuration especially in hillclimb cars, formula 1000, etc. Calculations were based on the current car weight including current 60hp R12 engine/box versus a 160/180hp litre bike engine (in which the 6 speed sequential box is integral, this drives a chain driving a sprocket coupled diff centre mounted on chassis via pillow block bearings. Relatively simple set up, very light and final drive ratio infinitely variable via sprocket changes. Though you are correct, i forgot to include driver weight in calculations.
    But obviously if i can just bolt on a higher output budget Renault engine this would be much easier. I can just see myself getting a bit tired of 60hp
    Hi saje
    Yes good to see you have the ideas. OK. I would be interested in the weight of it.
    I did suggest a supercharger which at ~7PSi would make that engine roughtly equal to a 2 Lt engine. Some decent exhaust and an old big SU would be cheap and easy. A bit of head work and a cam too for another stage. Just saying !! Or even a turbo if that takes your fancy.
    I have built a car or two for club work in past years so have some idea of what works.

    On another front does anyone know if the R19 engines fit that 12 gearbox easy. The 1.8 series two engines put out a good performance and have SOHC and EFI too. They must be cheap and easy to get now and like all renos were reliable if thrashed. The 1.8 put out 100+ HP standard in a manual.
    Jaahn
    Last edited by jaahn; 17th August 2018 at 09:51 PM.

  20. #45
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Weren't they all iron blocks? Ie, quite heavy compared to the 8/10/12 engines?

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

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    Quote Originally Posted by bowie View Post
    Weren't they all iron blocks? Ie, quite heavy compared to the 8/10/12 engines?
    Hi bowie
    Yes iron blocks as were the 8/10/12 engines ! Not sure about the heavy bit as Renault had all 3 series of these engines, 1108, 1300/1400 and 1700/1800 available as options in a variety of cars in the 70s, 80s and 90s. Both north/south and east/west mounting. So they must have been not too different in weight. That is why I though they might fit similar gearboxes.
    Jaahn

  22. #47
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Ah I'm confusing the aluminium blocks with the larger displacement ones

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaul...9on-Alu_engine

    If the K4m still shares the old bell housing pattern, I'd assume the engines in the middle (the 19) does too?

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

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    Hi Bowie :0
    Mate if you could follow the combinations and variations of the Renault engine range and the numbering codes, over the 80s and 90s and beyond you would be a genius ??? I guess being a major auto player in Europe and other countries and producing a vast range of cars for Europe under pollution regs and USA with Chrysler and also in third world countries where cheap was tops then what we saw here was just a tiny glimpse of them.
    Wikipedia is a bit hard to read too as some articles are obviously translated and not too good for some engines.

    But there seems to be scope for finding some engine that would fit and go OK. The R19s are unloved now and there must be lots in wreckers and backyards that would be almost available for the effort of taking them away. The scrap merchants have stopped trawling for cars now the price is so low.
    Jaahn

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    When discussing engine weight what really may matter some, is the weight of a long motor. For a race car only a very small alternator is needed and if weight was really important no starter. Push start it, although a pain if you spin and stall. The carbs and inlet manifold will be different to original as will the exhaust manifold. Most of those items will weigh near enough to the same whether on a 12 engine or an aluminium block Reno engine. Hence the weight comparison of a long motor would be better.

  25. #50
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    Now that R19 sounds promising and if prices really are as cheap as you say Jaahns, then it fits my budget too�� A quick gumtree and ebay search yeilds nothing though.
    Shoji san, it was built using R12 mechanicals but was constructed in 2004 and only did a few hillclimbs so would be eligible for G
    E.A.R days but not for historics for about another 14 years, so keeping it original gives no real benefits. I won't be keeping this too many years as i have another project in the works which is my real passion, this beast is just a bit of fun in the meantime.

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