Valve adjuster thread pitch?
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Thread: Valve adjuster thread pitch?

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    Default Valve adjuster thread pitch?

    Could anyone please help with the thread pitch of the valve adjusters on Moteur # 807-11 Engine # 0581? Thanks JG.

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    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    M8 x 1.0mm pitch.

    Do you need rockers or just nuts?

    Frans
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    Young enough to do it anyway.

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    Thanks for the reply.
    I was interested just in the thread pitch as you have mentioned thanks Frans = 1.0mm.
    This I assumed but hadn't gone far enough to measure, as I will be doing tappets next week.

    If anyone knows this engine's rocker arm ratio I am interested in working out how to be able to adjust valves on a 1600CC worn engine without using feeler gauges as a possible alternative. This is a method I used successfully on many old side valve engines.

    E.G. Knowing an engine tappet adjuster screw has 24 threads per inch 1 complete360* turn of the tappet adjuster hexagonal head [6 flats] is [1"/24] or 0.042".So just 1 flat of the hexagonal head is 0.042"/6 = 0.007" & 2 flats is 0.042”/3 or 0.014”. Ifyou want 0.016” just a tad more, etc.
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    Clever. Why didn't I think of that? Sounds like it came out of an old Popular Mechanics Magazine from the 1930's.
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    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Rocker ratio I use for valve lift calculations on 807 is 1.6:1

    Regards.
    Old enough to know better
    Young enough to do it anyway.

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    Some of us old timers [56 years in the trade] used this no feeler method on vintage vehicles with worn cam followers & valves worn into tappet adjusters so feeler gauges were not effective in setting valve clearances.
    Also there is a very simple method of getting all valves set accurately on a 4 cylinder engine that I use.
    It will have all valves set in 2 engine revolutions so it takes about 5 to 10 minutes. No counting valves & all that other rubbish.
    I will post this hopefully with pics when I do the valves on my engine maybe next week.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artificer View Post
    Some of us old timers [56 years in the trade] used this no feeler method on vintage vehicles with worn cam followers & valves worn into tappet adjusters so feeler gauges were not effective in setting valve clearances.
    Also there is a very simple method of getting all valves set accurately on a 4 cylinder engine that I use.
    It will have all valves set in 2 engine revolutions so it takes about 5 to 10 minutes. No counting valves & all that other rubbish.
    I will post this hopefully with pics when I do the valves on my engine maybe next week.
    Valve Clearances - Rule of Nine

    Is this what you mean? After removing spark plugs & selecting top gear I just roll it to meet the above parameters.

    I bought this gadget when I realised air cooled VW tappet measurement with feeler gauges was an almost lost cause due to the tops of valve stems becoming dished & concave. You haven't suffered tappet noise till you've
    heard the cacophony from one of these buggers with sloppy clearances

    Valve adjuster thread pitch?-img_2231.jpgValve adjuster thread pitch?-img_2232.jpgValve adjuster thread pitch?-img_2233.jpg

    On the back of the card is a list of threads of varying pitches giving the numbers of "clicks" per thou of an inch.

    There is also a formula to allow for rockers of unequal length either side of the pivot.

    It's quite handy; it takes a 1/2" drive socket to loosen the lock nut then the screwdriver pokes thru to turn the adjuster

    One of my student jobs was serving petrol & clean up boy at a servo. There was an old mechanic there who adjusted tappets with the engine running at idle. Loosen the nut, open it up till it starts to tap, then close it till the tapping JUST stops then lock it up.

    Seemed to work OK
    Last edited by geodon; 30th June 2018 at 12:40 PM. Reason: more info
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    I have also heard of a few old timers adjusting tappets using a vacuum gauge, but never seen it done or experimented.
    Having always been into using vacuum gauges [we taught their use in diagnostics & tuning, when I was in W.A. TAFE ] so may have a fiddle around & see what gives.

    No. 4 cylinder engine:
    Get the engine warm, [or cold if that is what is recommended] remove all plugs get any cylinder @ TDC compression say No.1 with No. 4 valves on the rock
    Adjust both No. 1 tappets with or without feeler gauges using the pitch & ratio calculation.
    Without feelers screw adjuster screw in until just no clearance then back off the amount of turn or hex flats, one has calculated.
    Put a chalk mark on a crank pulley & something that mark is indexed to.
    Now add another chalk mark 180* from the first mark on the pulley i.e. opposite the first mark.
    Turn the engine in the correct DOR until the 2nd chalk mark is adjacent to the index point.
    No. 3 will be @ TDC compression so adjust/set both valves.
    Turn another 180* until the first chalk mark is now back @ the index point & adjust No. 4's valves.
    Next turn another 180* & the 2nd chalk mark will be @ the index point & adjust No. 2's valves.
    All done clean up & put your tools away.
    6 cylinders chalk marks will be @ 120* & 8 cylinder 90* then follow the timing order to adjust all valves in 2 complete revolutions or 720*. Very quick & accurate.
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    That is a lot of faffing around for a worn out engine. Why not use a dial gauge indicator on the rocker arm at the valve end and adjust each cylinder at TDC? That gives a direct accurate reading of backlash and takes out all the approximations of rocker arm ratios, concave/worn valve stems/pushrods and so on.
    Only problem I see is you might have to come up with an appropriate holder for the indicator for each application, but that can't be that hard and if you only deal with one car, it makes the job so much quicker it is worth the time/money invested in a bespoke stand.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    That is a lot of faffing around for a worn out engine. Why not use a dial gauge indicator on the rocker arm at the valve end and adjust each cylinder at TDC? That gives a direct accurate reading of backlash and takes out all the approximations of rocker arm ratios, concave/worn valve stems/pushrods and so on.
    Only problem I see is you might have to come up with an appropriate holder for the indicator for each application, but that can't be that hard and if you only deal with one car, it makes the job so much quicker it is worth the time/money invested in a bespoke stand.
    I have never thought about doing tappet adjustment with a dial indicator, must say I like the idear.

    Here is what someone came up with for an MG motor and could be adapted to most other motors.

    https://www.mgexp.com/article/valve-...t-fixture.html
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    Regards Col

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    Well, it's kinda obvious. If in doubt, go back to basics.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    That is a lot of faffing around for a worn out engine. Why not use a dial gauge indicator on the rocker arm at the valve end and adjust each cylinder at TDC? That gives a direct accurate reading of backlash and takes out all the approximations of rocker arm ratios, concave/worn valve stems/pushrods and so on.
    Only problem I see is you might have to come up with an appropriate holder for the indicator for each application, but that can't be that hard and if you only deal with one car, it makes the job so much quicker it is worth the time/money invested in a bespoke stand.....Well, it's kinda obvious. If in doubt, go back to basics.
    Who said anything about a worn out engine? Make the job quicker? Back to basics?

    I would commonly use the 720* degree method, on any engine. With or without feelers it is the quickest method known to man.

    Of course a dial gauge will work fine, so whatever floats your boat, go for it.

    While out spending unnecessary money buying & then wasting time solving the problem of setting up said dial gauge, others including myself, will be finished & driving around.

    My impression was that technical forums like this were generally for those wishing to learn how to do things simply, with a minimum of hand tools & not those setup with a comprehensive workshop with rarely used specialist tools.

    I'll stick to simple methods with the only additions other than simple hand tools in my kit, for the task @ hand & most everything else being common sense, a piece of chalk, a vacuum gauge worth <$20, an auto multi-meter about $30 & a trouble light <$10.

    Using these simple multi-use tools is 'really' back to basics.
    Their use will get one on track & work a treat on all older vehicles, we appreciate.

  13. #13
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    Adjusting valves is an exercise in accuracy and repeatability.

    Use your methods if you like, but you won't get either with any of them, I hope you realise that.

    That said, don't worry, nobody is going to stop you use whatever method you like or share it around but you might want to put a disclaimer upfront.

    But your method is not a basic one.

    It may use basic tools (in your view) but it requires memorising an algorithm that needs to be arcanely applied otherwise it all goes wrong. And I bet you most people using that algorithm do not understand it, hence a high risk of error and failure.

    In my view I can't see what can be more basic than a device measuring what is basically length - a very sensitive and accurate ruler if you will.

    Yes, it will cost you about 80$ to get a good dial indicator. That is not that far from what you listed. Use it wisely and carefully and your children's children will get to use it too.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    Adjusting valves is an exercise in accuracy and repeatability.

    Use your methods if you like, but you won't get either with any of them, I hope you realise that.

    That said, don't worry, nobody is going to stop you use whatever method you like or share it around but you might want to put a disclaimer upfront.

    But your method is not a basic one.

    It may use basic tools (in your view) but it requires memorising an algorithm that needs to be arcanely applied otherwise it all goes wrong. And I bet you most people using that algorithm do not understand it, hence a high risk of error and failure.

    In my view I can't see what can be more basic than a device measuring what is basically length - a very sensitive and accurate ruler if you will.

    Yes, it will cost you about 80$ to get a good dial indicator. That is not that far from what you listed. Use it wisely and carefully and your children's children will get to use it too.
    Schlitz is right,

    My Grandad showed me how to use feeler gauges when I was 10 years old, I am now 70, and I still use feeler gauges to set valve clearances. Why because the lead ramp on any camshaft is designed to give a specific clearance on the back of the can and is meant to work that way. With too little clearance, and that is 0.025mm and you are open to start burning valves, too much clearance and you you are not getting the correct performance (burn) and causing excessive emissions.

    I am a fully trained Motor Mechanic, and it is the only recognised method of setting valve clearance in all the branches of the businesses I have worked in. My advise, buy a good set of feeler gauges, and learn how to use them.

    Ray
    Ray geckoeng

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    Default Using adjusting screw pitch for setting !

    Hi ,
    To add my to this discussion.
    I have found in times past that on some engines the adjusting screw is at the valve end and when you adjust it the clearance does not vary linearly with turning, as it has worn a flat spot. So a small turn results in a quick reduction in clearance. So some juggling required to get it correct. Obviously I am not as quick as Artificer to get it all done in a couple of minutes Worn engines ??

    I am old enough to have done some old engines with a feeler and hot and running !! The old Holdens were done that way. But the most fiddley engines are motorbikes. Often the access is restricted and the 2 thou feeler gauges are difficult to slide in as they do not have much stiffness. Slide it around for a 'feel', in their dreams

    Some old feelers had a reduced width end on them that was to allow for wear grooves. You could always cut/grind a feeler blade to make it thinner to fit well.
    Jaahn

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    It is clear some have obviously led very cloistered lives, not worked on all types vehicles & have closed minds.
    On any forum there always has to be those who know better than all others.

    Being a very experienced MIAME [Ret] including Examiner, Vehicle Mechanic who lectured in Heavy Duty in W.A. TAFE during the mid 1970's, then training Manager with John Deere, I may choose to use feelers or any other appropriate method including the 720* procedure espoused earlier.
    That is why, the answered question, was initially asked. Not to argue semantics with keyboard experts!
    Trying to compare the cost of a perhaps used once every few years dial gauge then passing on to children's children with a Vacuum gauge, Auto multi-meter & trouble light all continually used by folk working on vehicles, is pure nonsense.

    I clearly indicated how I intended to use the info & also that I will check out using a vacuum gauge, as some old timers did.

    As has been added in the most recent post feeler gauge use is & can be quite inaccurate & extremely messy.
    But for those who do not work on older vehicles, what is feeler related tappet adjustment?

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    Hi,
    Having belonged to an MG Car Club I do know how fanatical the owners can be !! But really those old motors do not need such precision in the tappets. Seems like a waste of good time and effort making up that dial gauge rig to achieve WHAT ?????? Any engine which has a 0.015" tappet clearance does not need to be set that accuracy to go well. The quieting ramps are generous and +/- 2thou would not make any difference, and possibly + 5thou either.
    You could do those BMC easy access tappets and do them in two turns with a narrow feeler in 10 minutes tops. Have a listen then running, if the wear is bad, check for noisey ones with a small feeler to see which need a bit less. re-adjust as required

    The important motors are those with only 5thou or even 2thou as they have small margin for error, but usually are OHC and do not wear so much, normally, except when the oil is never changed and the cam bearings are wearing into the head etc.
    Jaahn

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaahn View Post
    Hi ,
    To add my to this discussion.
    I have found in times past that on some engines the adjusting screw is at the valve end and when you adjust it the clearance does not vary linearly with turning, as it has worn a flat spot. So a small turn results in a quick reduction in clearance. So some juggling required to get it correct.

    [...]
    Not only that, but the thread itself has some play otherwise the screw wouldn't turn, ever. And this is random, can be 0.05 on this thread and 0.07 on the next, so adjusting by counting threads becomes a game of pot luck.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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