R8 gordini engine rebuild
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Thread: R8 gordini engine rebuild

  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    Default R8 gordini engine rebuild

    Just about to get my engine rebuilt on my R1134. When i bought the car there was no engine but the guy i bought it off has provided me with parts to build a motor. It came with what i believe to be standard rods. Firstly are all rods the same as gordini rods. I measured the pin from an example piston and that is 20mm diameter. The rod is 18mm. There doesnt appear to be enough metal to machine it out

    Can anyone advise

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  2. #2
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Hi,

    Yes the gudgeon pin is 20mm. So the rod should be that as well. I'm not sure what you mean by: Firstly are all rods the same as gordini rods. What Gordini rods do you mean? The rods are not the same as R1135 rods. The ones you have looks to be wrong if you say that they are 18mm at the small end. The piston diameter (bore) should be 70mm on the 1100s.

    If you want I can give you all the info that you require on a 1100 Gordini motor as well as on a 1255. I hope that the parts you got is complete because there are some hard to find stuff on these motors that were only used on the Gordinis.
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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Trust us, Frans KNOWS!
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  4. #4
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    What i meant by are all rods the same is are gordini r1134 rods the same as a standard r8/r10 rod.

    What parts are the difficult parts to get so i am sure i have them

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Hi,

    I would say:

    1) Distributor with the long drive shaft.
    2) Distributor pedestal (mounting seat)
    3) Rocker shaft with rockers.
    4) Push rods.
    5) Camshaft with the wider lobes and different valve sequence.
    6) The 21mm cam followers.
    7) The breather caps that sits on top of the rocker cover and used as method to pull the rocker cover tight.

    The others but not so obscure:
    1) Rocker cover.
    2) Side draught carbs. R1134 had 40mm Solex.
    3) Intake manifold.
    4) 4 into 2 into 1 extractors.
    5) High volume oil pump.
    6) Sandwich plate for the oil cooler. (not so sure about this one. Did the R1134 have an oil cooler?)

    That is what I can think of just off the cuff, there might be some added to this list.

    Frans.
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  6. #6
    Tadpole
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    Thanks for the checklist.
    Got a distributor and the guy says he has the long shaft which i still need to collect. Have the rocker shaft and rockers and camshaft, a set of pushrods (anything specific about these?),
    Not sure about item 2(would it be on the distributor base). Have cam followers but will measure them and think i have the breather caps.

    Got rocker cover, intake manifold, still need to collect the extractors.

    Dont have the carbs or oil cooler sandwhich plate

    How can i tell what oil pump i have?

    I still need to clarify the previous question regarding the rods if you can help

  7. #7
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    Is the block an actual 804 block (with a proper riveted ID plate)? The rods will have a bush in the small end as well, as they are floating gudgeon pins. Also make sure that the rocker gear is matching, as there are differences between the R1134 set and R1135 sets. Also the heads are different (but will interchange).
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  8. #8
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Hi,

    Push rods should be 4 long and 4 short with balls on both ends.

    Pedestal: yes it clamps onto the block and its use is to elevate the distributor to be above the carbs, hence the long drive shaft of the distributor.

    The 2 gears that forms the pump is 30 mm long, where as the standard oil pump is 25 mm. So you have a complete different upper part of the oil pump (cast alloy casing) to take the 30mm gears and then the base will be standard 1100 Sierra equipment.

    I am not sure about the conrods but they look the same as the old 1100 rods with the 25mm wide bigend side. I'm saying not sure because I haven't had the 1100 G and 1100 standard rods side by side yet, so what I'm saying is yes they are the same because they look the same as I can remember. 90% yes.

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  9. #9
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Hi,

    To add to Simon's comment, the 804 block will have camshaft bushes as well (white metal bushes)
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  10. #10
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    To identify the head, the 1255 head has a removable plug between the number 2 & 3 spark plug tubes that can be removed with an Allen key, where the 1100 head doesn't have it.

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  11. #11
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    Thanks for all the replies. Got a bit of checking to do. There were definitely camshaft bushes in the block and it had a riveted plate. I took it off before the block was cleaned.

    Unfortunately the machine shop knocked the camshaft bushes out. After i was told and no need to remove them

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Cambushes are available from Mecaparts but a nuisance to install. Then you have to remove the plugs and redrill the oil feed holes and thoroughly clean the oil gallery because all the shavings drops in there. You need a special tool to put the bushes in and then they have to be linebored to the cam journal diameter.
    Done that a few times and the biggest problem is to find an engineering shop to that small diameter line boring.

  13. #13
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    The rods i have dont have a bush in them. If they are machined then it looks like i will only have a couple of mm of metal in the small end. Is that how the original rods are

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Hi,

    It looks like you have the wrong ones because on all my engines I have been using Fiat 1500 pistons and their gudgeon pins are even bigger at 22mm and the 1300 Sierra conrods were big enough to resize them to 22mm, and that includes the race car.

    Are there any markings or numbers on them that might identify them as a Renault conrod or maybe something completely different? If you can post a photo someone might be able to tell or confirm. The info you give tells us that it is not right.

    Frans
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    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Re conrod, other then you and all us now knowing, how highly strung where these old things? Might it be ok?

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  16. #16
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Bowie,
    Not sure I understand your question but I don't think they are on the verge of design. I think they are very over designed. Most of what I mention on here I have already done and with standard 1300 conrods where the smallend are resized and increased by 2 mm plus 77mm pistons that are heavier than standard in the race car @ constant high revs, and in my street car that sees at least 7500 every weekend and HarryA R10 in Perth and many more in ZA, I have not heard of any of those cars that threw a conrod through the block.

    I'm sure it will be okay. I have started this mod many years ago and research and development was on me and the engines and luckily it worked out fine. I must admit that when the rods are increased to 22mm they are used and installed without a bush. They are not increased to lets say 24mm and then re-bushed to 22mm. The metal to metal contact has a hole drilled on top of the small end and then countersunk for the oil feed and it works fine and problem free. My street car has just completed 44,000 miles that way.

    Regards, Frans.
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    1000+ Posts geckoeng's Avatar
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    Hi Frans,
    If I may make a suggestion. Post pictures of everything in question maybe with some photoshop writing and numbers on to explain differences. Also the workshop manuals explain conrods well. I do not have a 1134/1100 engine manual. I have no more Gordini parts to do pictures of.

    Ray
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  18. #18
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Gee Ray! I wish I could but all is installed and I don't really have old photos that concentrate on the small end of a rod for instance.

    Stcos85, if I may ask, how serious are you about rebuilding this engine and to what standard? Do you want to keep the internals dead standard and original? Do you want to keep the engine 1100? Does the engineering works that is doing the job know anything about old Renault engines? Do they know about sleeve protrusion? Do they know that the cam bushes is "crush" fit in the block and needs to be pressed in to certain depths? Etc etc. Not trying to be funny but it will change the route of rebuilding.

    I'm not sure if you are aware of cars and engines. A wellknown engine builder, Ian Schwartz, once said that if you don't do it right the G on the rocker cover stands for "Grief".
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  19. #19
    Tadpole
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    Frans, i have emailed you a pic of the rod as i dont know how to post pics on here. i am a novice with these motors and appreciate any advice. if the rods are incorrect is tgere anything else i could use

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    R8 gordini engine rebuild-1340-engine-build-rods-1.jpgR8 gordini engine rebuild-1340-engine-build-rods-2.jpgR8 gordini engine rebuild-red-688-green-1298-blue-1397-rod.jpg
    Quote Originally Posted by stcos85 View Post
    Frans, i have emailed you a pic of the rod as i dont know how to post pics on here. i am a novice with these motors and appreciate any advice. if the rods are incorrect is tgere anything else i could use
    I will try to add some pictures of the differences between some parts to add to this conversation .

    The 688 block is probably the closes to the 804 block where the cylinder spacing is not equal between cylinders as is the 810 , 812 and the r5 / 1397 blocks are I am not sure about the 689 block yet because I have not pulled it apart . this also means that the heads on the smaller cc blocks are not evenly spaced you will notice that the bridging / spacing between cylinder's have a different width for the center 2 cylinders to match the block spacing of the 2mm offsets . The 1255 /812 engine used a 688 crank stroke and offset which meant that the side of the rod had to be shaved to get by 2mm and installed correctly to make them work .

    I can add more pictures if interested to show more differences between blocks .



    Hope this is helpful


    Manic GT
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    1000+ Posts geckoeng's Avatar
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    "stcos85"

    What you also need desperately is a 1134/804 workshop manual, even just for the motor. The 804 conrods are rather unique to the motor, because of the big end and small end hole sizes.

    Take pictures of all the questionable parts and show dimensions. Piston sizes and shapes. Pin sizes, rod lengths etc etc.

    That is the only way we can help you. You have more than likely been given any and all parts that were on the shelf.

    What you could build is an 1108/688 bottom end with 804 cam and cam gear and a 804 head with all the parts on it. Not sure how much compression is in the 804 pistons dome (???).

    We also need pictures of the cylinder head without rocker gear mounted on it.

    Ray
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  22. #22
    Tadpole
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    How do i post pictures on here

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    When using 'Quick reply' to post (just below the most recent post), look above the white box where you type and you will find a row of icons. Click 3rd from the right (Insert Image) - this opens the 'Insert Image' box. Click 'From Computer' then click 'Select Files'. Now you can search on your own computer (internal drive or external, such as USB stick) and select the photos you want to upload (hold down the CTRL key if selecting more than one) then click 'Open' button. This brings you back to the 'Insert Image ' Dialog box. Now click 'Upload Files' and Bob's your father's (or mother's) brother!


    Now double-click on one image - this opens the 'Image settings' box. From here you can choose the size and alignment of your uploaded photo.

    If you are posting from the 'Go Advanced' page, then it's a bit different...

    Cheers

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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manic GT View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	1340 engine build rods 1.jpg 
Views:	65 
Size:	61.3 KB 
ID:	106472Click image for larger version. 

Name:	1340 engine build rods 2.jpg 
Views:	69 
Size:	46.1 KB 
ID:	106473Click image for larger version. 

Name:	red 688,  green 1298,   blue 1397 rod.jpg 
Views:	76 
Size:	51.9 KB 
ID:	106471

    I will try to add some pictures of the differences between some parts to add to this conversation .

    The 688 block is probably the closes to the 804 block where the cylinder spacing is not equal between cylinders as is the 810 , 812 and the r5 / 1397 blocks are I am not sure about the 689 block yet because I have not pulled it apart . this also means that the heads on the smaller cc blocks are not evenly spaced you will notice that the bridging / spacing between cylinder's have a different width for the center 2 cylinders to match the block spacing of the 2mm offsets . The 1255 /812 engine used a 688 crank stroke and offset which meant that the side of the rod had to be shaved to get by 2mm and installed correctly to make them work .

    I can add more pictures if interested to show more differences between blocks .



    Hope this is helpful


    Manic GT
    I believe i have the rod with the red artow in the 3rd picture. Is it any good for this motor. If so will i need a different piston

  25. #25
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Hi,

    I have at home a stripped 1100 Gordini engine (804) that I need to rebuild for a customer. The history behind this engine is that it was raced in England for a long time and then bought and brought in to NZ. If it was with the car or without I don't know but it had a hard life and the possibility that there are changes to the crank and rods are highly possible.

    I will post pictures tonight of the conrods and pistons in this engine and very important, I will measure the length of the rods. Then we can see if we can help and get the correct length rod and it won't matter from what Renault it originate. He needs the correct bigend, smallend and length. The photos will show what the pistons should look like and Stcos85 can compare that with what he has. The pistons I have there are the correct 1100 Gordini pistons.

    I'm not familiar with a standard 804 engine and Simon's comment that the rocker assemblies are different surprised me. From what I've seen it looks like the same bore and stroke as the 1108 Sierra non-crossflow engines. From that I assume that a 1108 crank and rods will work on this. It may not be factory standard but it will make an engine go.

    Frans.
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