Modified R16TS Engine Power output?
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    Fellow Frogger! R8philSA's Avatar
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    Default Modified R16TS Engine Power output?

    Hi Guys.
    Just had the time of my life reading through the 20 Posts on " Cleon OEM cam profiles"

    As I continue to work on "BARNIE" I'm wondering what to expect from the engine I have just finished.

    I have no idea what this engine will do, might even explode!!! I hope not!!

    Any ideas out there??

    Specs:

    • 1565cc
    • Port and polished head (by me) not the full worked job but very shinny and enlarged exhaust ports.
    • Almost new Normal sized Inlet and Exhaust valves with double valve springs (70Ft/lb compression at static)
    • Reground cam and chemically soaked (Hardened) by John Moyle Endfield SA with re-profiled cam followers.
    • Cam grind: Inlet opens 25degress BTDC; Exhaust closes 25degrees ATDC, Inlet closes 65degrees ABDC, Exhaust opens 65degrees BBDC. Valve Clearance both Inlet and Exhaust 0.014" Cam lift 0.263"
    • Compression Ratio: Cylinder Head measured 47cc including thickness of Head Gasket, 77mm Bore x 84mm Stroke. My calculation is (391.16cm cubic) Compression Ratio 8.92:1. Head shaved to Min tolerance.
    • Distance from piston top to cylinder head 2.4mm (static)
    • Breathing: Two Weber 45mm Side Drafts with 4 into 2 into one extractors.
    • Flywheel, was 6.6 Kg reworked to 5.6 Kg and balanced with new clutch assembly.


    So there we have it.
    Happy to take any advice from any interested froggers.

    So "BARNIE" is sitting in a cold shed awaiting Engine connection to the bell housing. I have a coupe of Renault mates dropping by on 4th June and I asked them to bring their overalls.

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    I'm also taking this opertunity to thanks you all who over the past 16months have help me out, this would not have happened without your help, parts and advice.

    All the best
    Phil

    Modified R16TS Engine Power output?-dscn2719.jpg
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  2. #2
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    it will do mad skids

    ok ok and make you proud.

    But I'll place bet. 142hp at 6000rpm.
    Last edited by bowie; 30th May 2018 at 12:07 AM.

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    1000+ Posts FIVEDOOR's Avatar
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    Good work.

    Quote Originally Posted by bowie View Post
    it will do mad skids



    Even more impressive will be if it is the passenger who does the skids.
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    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Hi Phil,

    Well done. The engine looks superb compared to how you got it!!!

    I am sure that with the power to weight ratio it should go okay.

    You asked for it, so I will tell you what I would have done differently with the same amount of money or maybe a fraction more but remember this is just personal opinion.

    1) The cam you have is at the moment a 270 deg advertised duration. I would have gone to about 302 deg confidently with the Webers you already have.
    2) The compression ratio is about .3 higher than standard. 8.6:1 increased to 8.9:1. I would have stepped it up to 11:1 or there abouts. CR will single handedly give you the easiest and most substantial increase in power.

    Be carefull with the enlargement of the exhaust ports because 1) it will reduce the velocity of the gases where you need it to scavenge the already burnt fuel out of the combustion chamber and 2) if the ports are bigger than the extractor inlet/flange it will cause a restriction to the flow.

    Other than that it will be a very nice toy with a lot of history and you will have hours of good discussions about it. I wish you success for the 4th. It will be one of the milestones.

    Regards, Frans.
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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Nice. I'd be interested to hear more about the chemically-hardened and reprofiled cam followers Phil.
    JohnW

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    Hi Phil
    Sounds like a good combo. Not extreme but all the goodies for a free reving fun engine. Who cares what the figures are ! the proof is in the driving and should be good.
    The next step, or perhaps the one after that, will be to get it set up properly to get the best from the various modified parts, so they work as a whole. In time of yore I sent a bit of time tuning carbies and associated bits to rejet them correctly and get them optimised. Then you get the performance and the economy, easy running and tractable for a road car. Sweet Spend the time or the money to get it right, not a pig.
    Jaahn

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    Member nauli's Avatar
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    It looks superb!! Congratulations on such a fine job.
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    The cam seems pretty mild. A 17TS/G has 42:72:72:42 factory standard. And they are still happy enough down to 60 KPH in top gear so long as you don't want to climb a hill at that or just floor it. But really they do prefer 3rd of 4th around town. Too high Bowie, very lucky to reach 125 bhp. How many progression holes in the Webers R8phil?

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    Modified R16TS Engine Power output?-img_0001.jpg

    I love engine threads!

    To match ports to manifolds I used to use engineers' bearing blue (I still have the tube I bought 35 years ago!) and cover the manifold face on the engine in a thin coat with my finger, fit it up, then see where it doesn't match and relieve the manifold appropriately.
    Last edited by Stuey; 30th May 2018 at 02:44 PM.


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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Yes, one tube per lifetime for most of us!
    JohnW

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunroof View Post
    The cam seems pretty mild. A 17TS/G has 42:72:72:42 factory standard. And they are still happy enough down to 60 KPH in top gear so long as you don't want to climb a hill at that or just floor it. But really they do prefer 3rd of 4th around town. Too high Bowie, very lucky to reach 125 bhp. How many progression holes in the Webers R8phil?
    I was going to be even more conservative and suggest about 100HP at the flywheel.

    Should be very tractable though.
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    That could be even closer schlitzaugen.

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    1000+ Posts edgedweller's Avatar
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    Moyles managed to tune my supercharged/strengthened 403 motor down to 131HP.

    Told me he had to start the tuning with outboard motor spark plugs?

    Car, $20,000 bare metal recon, much modified with PA 4 wheel disc brakes, was good for 100+ mph, done only a coupla times on a very well surveyed roadway between Blyth and Brinkworth in mid-north SA, 1995.

    Overdrive gearbox and high ratio diff helped, was very tractable around town also

    A proud veteran car enthusiast was I.
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    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
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    My late great uncle and aunt were the postmasters in Blyth in the 70s.
    I spent a summer there in the school holidays with 2 cousins and played tennis on the Main Street. About twice per set we’d have to move aside for traffic!
    KB


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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    I think the main thing with these engines is to get the compression ration right and start with a normal R17TL cam (basically emulate the 17TL specs). That'll give you 100HP off the bat. Match the ports to make sure you don't have flow problems which can be very bad and are very easily avoidable and with no other head work (assume good three angle valve cuts here) this should give you a very useable power band with good bottom end and free revving at the top end.

    After that you can look into more involved stuff like Frans does and up the power to whatever you want, but for a street car under 1000kg I don't think I would bother (keep in mind you would need Frans's gearbox as well to be able to make use of the engine specs he has).

    If anything, I would look into a long (tall fifth) five speed g'box conversion so it doesn't grow me another head on a long trip at 5500RPM for twelve hours straight. Not that hard I reckon with say a R18 fifth or some such and some welding trickery (quite involved, actually). That would give a nice car with potential to make you smile through the hills in Adelaide and long legs for the country we live in.

    I would probably consider injection and electronic ignition for reliability and set and forget alone (plus my personal taste for playing with electronics).
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 30th May 2018 at 06:46 PM.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

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  16. #16
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    You can take advertised duration figures with a grain of salt. 25/65 and 42/72 and 302 deg., really means nothing, until you add a duration at 0.050" lift figure. Then you get a true indication of what is really under the curve, once the valve is off it's seat and and gas is flowing.

    8.9:1 does seem low to me however, regardless. For what it's worth, plug your numbers into a dynamic compression ratio calculator. That will give you a more realistic view of the engine's potential.

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    For comparison I think the R12 TS 810-05 had a CR of 9.5:1.


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    COL
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    I take it that 8.9:1 is static compression ratio, would be interesting to know what the dynamic compression ratio is.
    Regards Col

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  19. #19
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by renault8&10 View Post
    My late great uncle and aunt were the postmasters in Blyth in the 70s.
    I spent a summer there in the school holidays with 2 cousins and played tennis on the Main Street. About twice per set we’d have to move aside for traffic!
    Well, well, Blyth. I knew that area quite well in 1970, siting water bores for farmers. I'm a geologist not a water diviner, I'd add, and we won't get that one going on Aussiefrogs please!

    Some of those mid-north roads would be great in that 403.

    Back to topic, What a great job Phil. I reckon even a bog standard 16TS would be pretty good in an R8. A bit more grunt, a bit more fun though. Which gearbox EXACTLY are you putting the power through?

    Cheers
    JohnW

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    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
    Peugeot 306 XT 1995 (daughter's)
    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980

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  20. #20
    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    Hp figures are also dependant on the dyno and its operator, as well as all that has been mentioned above. My reasonable 1600 16TS engines on Webers usually made 114 -116 Hp at the wheels in my R8, long before Dyno Dynamics became popular. Very streetable with a flat idle on the Webers, but a larger cam than yours and 11 to 1 comp ratio. This was the cam I was using.
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    Alan, I'd love to see pics of your 750 with the 16 engine - are there any on AF?


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    Fellow Frogger! R8philSA's Avatar
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    Thanks Frans. All your points are extremely valid. I put a very limited budget on this car when I got it, $2000 and 12 months to fix it paint it and get some good rubber on it. Well I did under estimate it, it will come in nearer $4000 and 18months so getting extra power work done would have cost a lot more. I really only restored BARNIE to give me something to do in retirement and he certainly has fulfilled that!
    The number of hours spent is ridiculous but I loved the challenge. can't wait to put it on a sprint track/hill climb just for the thrill of it.

    Thanks again for all your professional help over the years, I considered just about everything you wrote. I'm still trying to get to NZ and will definitely drop by when I'm there.
    Cheers
    Phil


    Quote Originally Posted by Frans View Post
    Hi Phil,

    Well done. The engine looks superb compared to how you got it!!!

    I am sure that with the power to weight ratio it should go okay.

    You asked for it, so I will tell you what I would have done differently with the same amount of money or maybe a fraction more but remember this is just personal opinion.

    1) The cam you have is at the moment a 270 deg advertised duration. I would have gone to about 302 deg confidently with the Webers you already have.
    2) The compression ratio is about .3 higher than standard. 8.6:1 increased to 8.9:1. I would have stepped it up to 11:1 or there abouts. CR will single handedly give you the easiest and most substantial increase in power.

    Be carefull with the enlargement of the exhaust ports because 1) it will reduce the velocity of the gases where you need it to scavenge the already burnt fuel out of the combustion chamber and 2) if the ports are bigger than the extractor inlet/flange it will cause a restriction to the flow.

    Other than that it will be a very nice toy with a lot of history and you will have hours of good discussions about it. I wish you success for the 4th. It will be one of the milestones.

    Regards, Frans.
    Brianbcs and bowie like this.

  23. #23
    Fellow Frogger! R8philSA's Avatar
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    Not the cam followers John, the actual cam lobes. some chemical hardening this mob have been doing for years after re-grinds.
    Great people and the guy Garry has been grinding cams for 50 years.
    Cheers
    Phil



    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    Nice. I'd be interested to hear more about the chemically-hardened and reprofiled cam followers Phil.

  24. #24
    Fellow Frogger! R8philSA's Avatar
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    Sorry Sunroof, " progression holes " what the ????
    I was brought up with aircraft carburetors, not sure I've heard that term before??
    Phil



    Quote Originally Posted by Sunroof View Post
    The cam seems pretty mild. A 17TS/G has 42:72:72:42 factory standard. And they are still happy enough down to 60 KPH in top gear so long as you don't want to climb a hill at that or just floor it. But really they do prefer 3rd of 4th around town. Too high Bowie, very lucky to reach 125 bhp. How many progression holes in the Webers R8phil?

  25. #25
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R8philSA View Post
    Not the cam followers John, the actual cam lobes. some chemical hardening this mob have been doing for years after re-grinds.
    Great people and the guy Garry has been grinding cams for 50 years.
    Cheers
    Phil
    It's standard operating procedure really for regrinds. It happens here in Sydney too.

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