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Thread: Modified R16TS Engine Power output?

  1. #26
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    I think he means actually openings in the main jet. Some jets are with 2 orifices, some seem to have up to 5. If I understand, I think it was to fill the spots between the idle and main jet to make things nice and responsive as you cross between them.

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    I assume it's a similar procedure to nitriding, like they used to do on crankshafts, using heat and a source of nitrogen (ie. an ammonia compound) which case hardens the steel through combining the nitrogen into the surface.


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    Quote Originally Posted by R8philSA View Post
    Not the cam followers John, the actual cam lobes. some chemical hardening this mob have been doing for years after re-grinds.
    Great people and the guy Garry has been grinding cams for 50 years.
    Cheers
    Phil
    I think John was asking more about the re-profiled cam followers given these need to be flat.
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  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by R8philSA View Post
    Sorry Sunroof, " progression holes " what the ????
    I was brought up with aircraft carburetors, not sure I've heard that term before??
    Phil
    Quote Originally Posted by bowie View Post
    I think he means actually openings in the main jet. Some jets are with 2 orifices, some seem to have up to 5. If I understand, I think it was to fill the spots between the idle and main jet to make things nice and responsive as you cross between them.
    Not the main jet, bowie. He's talking about the air progression.

    (Air) progression holes are just that, holes that ensure your progression (transition from fully closed throttle butterfly to fully open) is smooth like it would be in a fuel injected engine (if you didn't screw up the fuel map). This is achieved by drilling a number of holes in the carby throat just under the throttle butterfly so when this opens it sweeps past them stabilising the airflow so you don't have hesitation and jerky response when you step on it.

    This is because at low throttle plate angles (plate just off idle position) air flow changes dramatically for a small change in butterfly angle and would jerk the carby airflow hence the fuel demand and the carby would inevitably get it wrong eventually if not all the time.

    Also, imagine cruising at (low) partial throttle and going up and down gentle hills and trying to keep your speed constant or flooring it suddenly after cruising at highway speed. You can change the airflow in the carby in a split second as you put your foot down, but the carby can't react that fast so progression holes serve to make this transition smooth and give the carby a fighting chance to keep up.

    Open the progression towers on your side drafts and you'll see the holes in the bottom. Or look down the carby throat (head side) and open the butterfly and you'll see its top edge sweeping past them.

    Old carbies have three, newer versions have five (smoother transition) or even six.

    Here's a picture posted by Col in a thread on our very forum:

    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/att...s-img_2025.jpg

    Thread:

    Weber DCOE Progression Holes.

    Not really important in a race car running at WOT all the time and ultimately just another clunky way to deal with the vastly different running regimes a carby has to be able to accomodate. Testimony to how much you simplify and improve things going to FI.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 31st May 2018 at 12:14 AM.
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  5. #30
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    That is the best explanation of progression holes I have read.

    The problem is that many Webers only have two progression holes and trying to make 45mm carbs work with two on such a small capacity motor is difficult. (Although 12 G had 45's, Weber recommend 40's.) I found despite playing with many different jet sizes I needed three progression holes. The R12 G and the 4 cylinder 310 Alpines have three. I have now set my 45mm carbs to the same jets as R12G and drilled an extra hole so as I had the same progression holes as 12G's, Alpine etc. This works. The mains on Weber come in at quite high RPM and except on the highway or track, most of the legal running is done on progression holes alone. My mains seem to come in between about 2800 RPM and 3200 RPM which is roughly between 95 and 100 KPH in top. Or around 60 KPH and 80 KPH in various gears which meant that in city traffic. running on only two progression holes was a jerky ride. Further my mains were so large that when I floored it following cars were left in a cloud of black smoke. The car now runs very nicely set up as a 12G was. The holes should be drilled just like Cols photo for a 12G and are all 1mm. But all of these motors in my opinon run best at 3200 RPM and up. Although the 12G/17TS/G power curve is between 4000 and 6000 RPM. So they are really pretty high reving motors when worked hard. The 5 speed gear box works perfectly between 4000 and 6000 as it was obviously designed to do.
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    There is no accelerator pump but a power jet and it is also important for normal running as in some cases it can also provide fuel when the mains are running not just for acceleration but when running at a set speed. So check that the power jet is the same as 12G. Some are not.

  7. #32
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    [QUOTE=R8philSA;1571788]Not the cam followers John, the actual cam lobes. some chemical hardening this mob have been doing for years after re-grinds.
    Great people and the guy Garry has been grinding cams for 50 years.
    Cheers
    Phil[/QUOTE
    I would guess this is Parkerising or Lubriting(sp) and is a process to help the running in of the cam, putting a coating of dark material on the cam etc.
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  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuey View Post
    Alan, I'd love to see pics of your 750 with the 16 engine - are there any on AF?
    There are some around although I have rarely taken a photo of it. I expect John W and some other 4CV people might have some. I am looking to put fuel injection, different front seats, and a paint job on it before the muster next year. It is part disassembled at the moment, and so a non goer currently.
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan moore View Post
    There are some around although I have rarely taken a photo of it. I expect John W and some other 4CV people might have some. I am looking to put fuel injection, different front seats, and a paint job on it before the muster next year. It is part disassembled at the moment, and so a non goer currently.
    I took the liberty of sending Stuey some photos Alan. I should send them to you too!! And how is your camshaft/follower situation these days?

    Best wishes,
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  10. #35
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    [QUOTE=alan moore;1571838]
    Quote Originally Posted by R8philSA View Post
    Not the cam followers John, the actual cam lobes. some chemical hardening this mob have been doing for years after re-grinds.
    Great people and the guy Garry has been grinding cams for 50 years.
    Cheers
    Phil[/QUOTE
    I would guess this is Parkerising or Lubriting(sp) and is a process to help the running in of the cam, putting a coating of dark material on the cam etc.
    Most likely Parco Lubrite.
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  11. #36
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    Yes, that sounds like it Stuey
    Phil


    Quote Originally Posted by Stuey View Post
    I assume it's a similar procedure to nitriding, like they used to do on crankshafts, using heat and a source of nitrogen (ie. an ammonia compound) which case hardens the steel through combining the nitrogen into the surface.

  12. #37
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    Yes Alan, spot on. I also got the word that when I first start it up I should hover around 2000RPM for 20 minutes. This will harden the lobes even further.
    Can you agree with this???
    Phil



    [QUOTE=alan moore;1571838]
    Quote Originally Posted by R8philSA View Post
    Not the cam followers John, the actual cam lobes. some chemical hardening this mob have been doing for years after re-grinds.
    Great people and the guy Garry has been grinding cams for 50 years.
    Cheers
    Phil[/QUOTE
    I would guess this is Parkerising or Lubriting(sp) and is a process to help the running in of the cam, putting a coating of dark material on the cam etc.

  13. #38
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    Definitely. No idling. Also pour bottle of Comp Cams Break In Lube (or similar) over the cam during assembly. This is very high in zinc, which will cushion the blow between lobe and lifter, during the running in period. Leave in there until the first oil change.

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  14. #39
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    Thank you Schlitzaugen for a very detailed explanation. I click back to my overhaul photos and see what I can find.

    Cheers
    Phil


    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    Not the main jet, bowie. He's talking about the air progression.

    (Air) progression holes are just that, holes that ensure your progression (transition from fully closed throttle butterfly to fully open) is smooth like it would be in a fuel injected engine (if you didn't screw up the fuel map). This is achieved by drilling a number of holes in the carby throat just under the throttle butterfly so when this opens it sweeps past them stabilising the airflow so you don't have hesitation and jerky response when you step on it.

    This is because at low throttle plate angles (plate just off idle position) air flow changes dramatically for a small change in butterfly angle and would jerk the carby airflow hence the fuel demand and the carby would inevitably get it wrong eventually if not all the time.

    Also, imagine cruising at (low) partial throttle and going up and down gentle hills and trying to keep your speed constant or flooring it suddenly after cruising at highway speed. You can change the airflow in the carby in a split second as you put your foot down, but the carby can't react that fast so progression holes serve to make this transition smooth and give the carby a fighting chance to keep up.

    Open the progression towers on your side drafts and you'll see the holes in the bottom. Or look down the carby throat (head side) and open the butterfly and you'll see its top edge sweeping past them.

    Old carbies have three, newer versions have five (smoother transition) or even six.

    Here's a picture posted by Col in a thread on our very forum:

    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/att...s-img_2025.jpg

    Thread:

    Weber DCOE Progression Holes.

    Not really important in a race car running at WOT all the time and ultimately just another clunky way to deal with the vastly different running regimes a carby has to be able to accomodate. Testimony to how much you simplify and improve things going to FI.

  15. #40
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    [QUOTE=R8philSA;1571897]Yes Alan, spot on. I also got the word that when I first start it up I should hover around 2000RPM for 20 minutes. This will harden the lobes even further.
    Can you agree with this???
    Phil



    Yes, quite correct.
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  16. #41
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    Also another tip with these motors is to remove the oil filter and pour some oil down into the oil pump to help prime it quickly.
    Regards Col

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  17. #42
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    For the Sierra engines, I made up a gizmo using an old dog drive and a bit of scrap rod where I can spin up the oil pump with a cordless drill and the dizzy removed. Making sure you have oil pressure before you try fire it up.
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  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by renault8&10 View Post
    For the Sierra engines, I made up a gizmo using an old dog drive and a bit of scrap rod where I can spin up the oil pump with a cordless drill and the dizzy removed. Making sure you have oil pressure before you try fire it up.
    Unfortunately you can't do this with the R16 based engines as you cannot remove the oil pump/distributor drive with the head attached to the block.
    Regards Col

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  19. #44
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    Could always pull the cap and rotor button, and make a jig for the shaft then I suppose!
    KB


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    Quote Originally Posted by renault8&10 View Post
    Could always pull the cap and rotor button, and make a jig for the shaft then I suppose!
    That won't work because the camshaft is still engaged and you will be turning over the engine.
    Regards Col

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  21. #46
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    I think you can remove the dizzy drive even with the head attached but 1) it is not a pleasure, 2) it would be a mess trying to put it back such that correct ignition timing is kept and 3) the engine primes in two revolutions of the crankshaft (I checked and oil is up in the head already after two revolutions) - how long does that take when cranking on the starter? 2 seconds? Less? During which seconds you have your camshaft spinning only once and it's on moly based engine assembly grease anyway.

    I didn't bother with priming it, but I did use Lucas break in oil additive because I checked and most break in oils don't have the high content ZDDP you need for cam break in. Don't remember the numbers, but I had to use about 3/4 of the bottle for the oil volume.

    From my experience I would recommend Frans' method and keep the revs a bit higher than 2000 but most importantly vary up and down (say between 3000RPM to say 2500 all the time for the 20 minutes or so). Not obnoxiously fast, but gently and smoothly, up, down, up, down. It may annoy the neighbours a bit, and it seems like an eternity and you do feel like a bit of berk torturing a car in your driveway but you only have to do it once.

    I think Frans recommends about 4000RPM or so, and I think that is because the load on the camshaft lobes is smaller at high RPM. You don't want zero load (that wouldn't work harden the lobes) but just enough that would ensure the lobes will harden with no damage. Another recommendation I found was that if you can, you should run in the camshaft with only one spring installed in the valves (if yours has twin springs). This is (again) to try and tune the pressure on the cam lobes to a more reasonable level for run in. Not really important if your engine has only moderate spring pressure or single springs. Also impossible on some engines without dismantling the engine to put back the second spring after break in.

    So a number of variables there you can try and tune for optimum procedure for your engine.

    If you have the experience of drilling in metals, it kinda works like hardening a material you are trying to drill through. If you don't put the correct pressure on the drill or use the wrong spinning speed (or the wrong drill bit cutting angles), it doesn't penetrate rapidly enough and it heats the material you're trying to drill enough that it hardens and blunts your drill bit. I've made that mistake many times, and then your drill bit is scrap. Well, that is what you want to happen here. You want to find this speed where things heat up a bit and harden rather than take chunks out of each other.

    Make sure the car starts and runs first go though. You don't want it to crank for a million years. If anything I would recommend (given that yours is on carbs and big ones at that) to manually fill the bowls before starting it. This is another reason why I wouldn't screw around with the dizzy drive once you set the ignition timing. You want the engine to start if possible in two cranks or so and then take it straight above 2000RPM with no stalling. Much easier with FI and electronic ignition.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 3rd June 2018 at 09:55 PM.
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  22. #47
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    Thanks Col and Schlitzaugen and Renault8&10 for all the advice and I'll certainly take it all on board.
    I'll be ringing my cam Grinding man about ""I didn't bother with priming it, but I did use Lucas break in oil additive because I checked and most break in oils don't have the high content ZDDP you need for cam break in. Don't remember the numbers, but I had to use about 3/4 of the bottle for the oil volume"".
    Thanks again all for your advice

    *****One thing I did notice when I took the engine out, the No. 1 spark plug is right where the R8 rear shelf support is so I ended up taking the head of with the No.1 plug still in it. Guess what, the new head is on so the No.1 plug will be fitted prior to installation. What other choice will I have!! Catch 22 !! Also noted that the engine can't be bolted straight up to the bell housing because the Water Pump Drive/Cam Shaft pulley and belt hit the bell housing before the splines align for the clutch installation. Wish me luck!!
    Cheers
    Phil

  23. #48
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    Here is my good luck wish Phil. Can't you cut a hole somewhere to get plug access for #1?

    I also recall Frans talking about 4000 rpm to bed in the cam. He said it sounds like a terrible idea but works. He should know.....

    Cheers
    JohnW

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  24. #49
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    Hi Phil

    How much clearance do you have between the top of the rocker cover and the bottom of the shelf support?

    I use a 3/8" plug socket, a small extension and a universal to access the number 1 plug on my alpine, actually need it for all of the except number 4.
    Regards Col

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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    I think you can remove the dizzy drive even with the head attached but 1) it is not a pleasure, 2) it would be a mess trying to put it back such that correct ignition timing is kept
    I checked the drive will not fit through the hole.
    Regards Col

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