WTB - 807 piston and liner kit or...
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Thread: WTB - 807 piston and liner kit or...

  1. #1
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    Default WTB - 807 piston and liner kit or...

    Hi all,

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    Does anyone have a set of 807 pistons and liners surplus to requirements? I'm looking for a bog standard 1565 cc set.

    If not new then at least a very serviceable set of 2nd hand ones?

    I'm also struggling to find a set of rings locally for the said engine so any leads there would be good, too.

    P
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    Perhaps repost in the parts wanted and for sale area?

    Try JP Pistons in Adelaide for the rings.

    Cheers
    JohnW

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    Quote Originally Posted by Exfrogger View Post
    Hi all,

    Does anyone have a set of 807 pistons and liners surplus to requirements? I'm looking for a bog standard 1565 cc set.

    If not new then at least a very serviceable set of 2nd hand ones?


    I'm also struggling to find a set of rings locally for the said engine so any leads there would be good, too.

    P
    I have a set of used pistons/liners from a 841 motor that is a 1565cc unit. Should be the same as in 807 motor i.e. 77mm bore and 84mm stroke. PM your email and I'll send some photos and then you can make an offer. They came out of a motor built by Alpine Motors here in Canberra.

    Cheers

    bazzamac

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    The last lot of rings I bought were from the USofA on Ebay.

    From memory they were Sealed Power Kromex brand.
    Regards Col

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    Quote Originally Posted by bazzamac View Post
    I have a set of used pistons/liners from a 841 motor that is a 1565cc unit. Should be the same as in 807 motor i.e. 77mm bore and 84mm stroke. PM your email and I'll send some photos and then you can make an offer. They came out of a motor built by Alpine Motors here in Canberra.

    Cheers

    bazzamac
    Just check the details again, as an 841 is quite a rare motor. Also 1647cc, with o-ring liner seals. So the attributes of what you have may not directly suit an 807 motor.
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    Was Shoji doing a full rebuild of his 807 motor, or is he keeping the existing pistons and liners?
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    Mr P and Simon,
    The motor is not open yet, and I have a set of new pistons but no liners yet.

    As soon as, will get into it.

    Ray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post
    Just check the details again, as an 841 is quite a rare motor. Also 1647cc, with o-ring liner seals. So the attributes of what you have may not directly suit an 807 motor.
    I stand to be corrected, Simon, but I am surprised the 841 motor is quite rare as it was used in the R16TL and R18 TS-GTS, the R18 auto and station wagon and capacity is stated as 1565cc according to car folio.com. The liners I have would require o-ring liner seals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bazzamac View Post
    I stand to be corrected, Simon, but I am surprised the 841 motor is quite rare as it was used in the R16TL and R18 TS-GTS, the R18 auto and station wagon and capacity is stated as 1565cc according to car folio.com. The liners I have would require o-ring liner seals.
    Rare in Australia, as it was only used in the 18GTS. The R1152/53 16TL was a Type 821, 1565cc with paper liner seals - however there was an R1155 16, and others which also used the 841 motor in certain overseas markets.

    Dig out the factory Renault 18 manual I sent you a couple (or so) years ago, for further details, not everything on the net is true :-)

    Also, being non-crossflow, the 841 pistons would need to be cut to clear the 807 valves too. So whilst not an impossible task to install an o-ring liner in an 807 block, it would involve fairly precise and likely costly machining, especially if it can't be done "at home".

    Another reference on the net to the 841 motor....

    http://www.users.on.net/~matthew_bow.../13141324.html
    Last edited by Simon; 24th February 2018 at 10:55 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post
    Was Shoji doing a full rebuild of his 807 motor, or is he keeping the existing pistons and liners?
    We might keep what we have at the moment for another rebuild of the original engine in the 17 that has a little gudgeon pin noise. It will be rebuilt later including the box and mothballed for now. But looking forward to the beast motor
    ďListen very carefully, I shall say this only once.Ē Cheers. John

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Exfrogger.

    I have a full set of used pistons and liners out of a 17TL you can have for postage cost if you want. I am not sure how useable they are. Subject to being able to dig these up (I am known for misplacing things). These don't have good rings anymore.

    But if you want to get adventurous, I have an entire 807 engine you can just plonk in (granted it is an unknown quantity so it comes with risks).

    If neither option satisfies your playful spirit and you want to really test karma, I have a set of liners and pistons off a 17G together with the associated (very useable) head. I want money for the head, the rest is the "garnish". Keep in mind, if you choose this option you will need a 17G camshaft, a re-curved dizzy (or aftermarket ignition management) and some better fuel system to take advantage of these.

    If you just want to do a ring job, why not try Hastings in Tassie (you will have to give them dimensions), or for a set of rings that fit straight in look overseas, there's plenty of places ( if you just want click and pay, go Mecaparts and be done with it).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post
    Rare in Australia, as it was only used in the 18GTS. The R1152/53 16TL was a Type 821, 1565cc with paper liner seals - however there was an R1155 16, and others which also used the 841 motor in certain overseas markets.

    Dig out the factory Renault 18 manual I sent you a couple (or so) years ago, for further details, not everything on the net is true :-)

    Also, being non-crossflow, the 841 pistons would need to be cut to clear the 807 valves too. So whilst not an impossible task to install an o-ring liner in an 807 block, it would involve fairly precise and likely costly machining, especially if it can't be done "at home".

    Another reference on the net to the 841 motor....

    The Renault 15/17 Register - Specifications
    The motor I have is a 841 but it has been fitted with new 77mmx 84mm pistons and liners - hence the confusion. The pistons are sloped on the sides presumably to clear the valves. The motor was rebuilt to fit my Fuego turbo. The original motor in the Fuego turbo is an A5L and the pistons/liners have the same dimensions as above. Capacity is as you stated 1565cc. The used pistons/liners I have are the same and would fit an 807 motor. However, I have since found that one of the pistons has a broken lip between the top and second ring so a new or another piston would be needed. If ex Frogger is still interested, I can send photos if I have his email address.

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    Thanks kindly to you all for the above comments and insights.

    Ray, no pressure. At this stage I just need to know what Iím up against.

    Shiltzie, that complete R16 motor is tempting, The 17G less so (see below Ė particularly the bit about fuel economyÖ)

    Background and some questions:


    I have two incomplete R16 motors I've pulled down and hope to be able to cobble together a motor I can graft into my long suffering R12 in the hopes of doing another outback ramble in July. I have a 5-speed box and that'll go behind it. The engine I slap together will need to get me to Adelaide then into the bush and home again.

    The 1289cc motor I used in the past has served me well. However when cold I get considerable piston slap and it wonít push 5th gear, in fact it struggles a little on the 14Ē wheels I use for ground clearance. And its become a little oily. By being able to use top gear Iím hoping an 807 motor will deliver better fuel economy which means Iíll need to carry less fuel.

    And of course, Iím on a budget.

    So far, I have:

    • a serviceable crankshaft,
    • a camshaft that might make the distance (may need to get it reground)
    • a couple of good R16 blocks
    • A sump pan
    • a bunch of pistons that are either seized in the liners or, the seized on the wrist pins (unfortunately the latter are the better pistons)
    • An R17 exhaust system
    • R17 radiator with fan
    • A serviceable gearbox
    • An inlet manifold
    • A serviceable R16 carby
    • A fairly sound Bosch dizzy
    • Starter motor
    • Air filter
    • A pair of shortened R18 driveshafts that may fit
    • Flywheel


    Previous attempts at getting my hands on an R17 block were unsuccessful so Iíll need to fabricate a carrier plate and some mounting blocks for the gearbox.

    Things I will need are:

    • Rings
    • Conrod bearings std
    • Main bearings std (precision International list both bearings at reasonable prices)
    • A set of cam followers
    • A Couple of push rods
    • A backwards spinning alternator that pumps out better than 75 amps
    • A carby horn
    • A carby horn to filter coupling
    • Probably a water pump
    • Probably a fuel pump
    • Probably a set of hoses and coolant pipes,
    • Iíve resurfaced a couple of flywheels but Iíll be on the hunt for a serviceable clutch



    Questions:


    Anyone have any experience that would tell me how worn is too worn Ė that is, what can you get away with - when measuring up piston liners? (Taper and ovality)

    How much wear can you get away with on pistons?

    (Remember while thereíll be no track outings, its got some hard travelling to do and it will be a candidate for a daily driver. And yes, if I had my druthers Iíd put in a new set of pistons and liners.)
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  14. #14
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Ex

    My 807 is out of a R17TL, not a R16 so it will plonk straight in.

    In your shoes, I would have tried the engines before dismantling even if it took oodles of WD40 to get them moving.

    I would try the trick with the pistons you've got stuck on the wristpins as well.

    The cack that blocks them is oil residue, and that will dissolve eventually in a battery of chemicals. I would go at it like my life depended on it and would guarantee they will free up. That however is not a good sign for the rings. The crap accumulated in their grooves block oiling, they get stuck and can't expand and move about freely to follow the liner wall and they wear out prematurely, taking out the liner wall in the process. Engines are supposed to run, not sit. Moreover, it is a very good policy to give it some crazy revs every now and then for a few seconds to push the gas behind the rings, expand them and allow them to mate and follow the liner wall and wear together with it.

    At this point where you find yourself now, I think taking a chance on my 807 engine (which turns easily) would still be the best (read cheapest) way to go.

    All that stuff in your list is pretty serious money by the time you add machining, linishing of the followers and so on. An engine that worked as it is will likely work again at least as well as it did before. Maybe I am just lucky but I bought a couple of engines sight unseen (one for the 205GTI) that I just cleaned, gave them timing belt kits and run them for years before they needed attention. One had been sitting for years in someone's garage. I would take a guess the previous owner had some unfounded suspicions about it.

    Regarding pistons, I would look for an out of round of no more than 0.04mm, similarly for liners. 0.05 is on the limit.

    Your g'box is probably a 395 which has a tall fifth (.87 I think as opposed to a .93 or something you'd get in a 365) that is why your engine won't push it. You need to be at over 5k rpm to use that with a 810 engine. Even a 807 won't like it below 4k rpm.
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    Trust me on this Shiltzie they were pretty stuffed.

    One came with no head and the pistons (without liners) sitting frozen in the block, and the other was so frozen that the pistons sat in a kero bath for a couple of months and even with a hydraulic press I still couldn’t get them fully out of the liners. And let’s not talk about the head...

    I'm uncharacteristically optimistic that I’ll be able to get an engine together without breaking the bank. The mains, conrod bearings, thrust washers, timing chain and a couple of other bits and pieces have come in at under $140. If I find a decent head, that’ll be $300 odd to have serviced. A gasket set will come in around the $100 - 140 mark. The camshaft smoothing and crankshaft polish, may not cost the earth – so yeah, I’m pretty confident…

    Hastings and Precision International don’t list rings for this engine.

    And thanks for your insights re tolerances

    PM sent re that 17TL engine you’ve got.

    Peter
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  16. #16
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    Hastings are best approached by phone and explained what you need. They'll need a set of sizes (thickness, diameter, etc.) which they'll use to put together a set of rings for you. They are very nice, but I still had to return two rings because they had defects, so you need to do your homework and measure things before you assemble your engine. I ended up with a selection of rings at no extra cost from them and measured everything, corrected the gaps and put together a sweet little engine for my 205GTI.

    Measuring pistons and liners is a headache even if you do have the right tools. Ideally, you should use a surface plate and a vertical dial gauge base (both on my shopping list). Right now I use the mill, which is very well trammed and I use my dial gauge in the quill to measure the vertical and radial dimensions, but like I said, it is an exercise in patience. I also have a bore gauge but that is even more of a pain to use even though it is a Mitutoyo (you need to put a piston with at least one ring on it down the bore to provide a support for the feeler to make sure you are measuring at a constant height all the way around, and then move the piston at different heights and take measurements all the way around).

    If I had to do another engine and wanted to reuse liners, I would go up to 1605 ccm and bore the liners from 1565 just make sure the bores are good. That is .5mm or so increase in bore size, easy to bore and with the best reliability and quality of results. You would still need to buy a set of 1605 pistons with rings beforehand so your machinist has them on hand.

    As you can see, it's not that simple, and in my opinion not worth it. For 600 bucks or so (or was that Euro? - can't remember) plus postage you can get a piston and liner kit form Mecaparts and just chuck it in (after measuring things, of course, but the set I got from them for my 17G engine was pretty damn good, pistons were within .5 of a gram of each other, rings perfect, liners spot on).

    The real problem is when you start measuring the crankshaft and find how much you need to grind it, and then the main bearing tunnel and find the block is distorted and you need a line bore, and then you need new bearings for the new bore and so on.

    To recap, you need to start by checking the main bearing tunnel, line bore if necessary, then deck the block with the liners in so you can keep an eye on how much they'll project above the block.

    If the block was distorted, I would check the camshaft bearings are aligned as well.

    After that is all done, you need to grind the crankshaft. After that you will have the block bore and the crank journal sizes you need to work with so now you can figure out what size bearings you need.

    Next, you need to look at the big ends of your conrods (and small ends, see below). These may need a hone as well. Do that and now you can order your big end bearings.

    The small end bushings need checked too and re-bushed if necessary.

    When all of that is sorted you can put together the bottom end, and move on to pistons, rings and liner excelnyl or o-ring gaskets. If you have an o-ring block, you need to machine the liners to adjust protrusion, there is no other way. If the liners are too low, you should have decked the block more (told you to deck it first).

    If you have a flat liner seat (excelnyl) block, you have more options but again, you should have decked the block with the liners in.

    So you see, it's all fun and games.

    Still with me?
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 25th February 2018 at 11:35 PM.
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    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    Hastings are best approached by phone and explained what you need. They'll need a set of sizes (thickness, diameter, etc.) which they'll use to put together a set of rings for you. They are very nice, but I still had to return two rings because they had defects, so you need to do your homework and measure things before you assemble your engine. I ended up with a selection of rings at no extra cost from them and measured everything, corrected the gaps and put together a sweet little engine for my 205GTI.

    Measuring pistons and liners is a headache even if you do have the right tools. Ideally, you should use a surface plate and a vertical dial gauge base (both on my shopping list). Right now I use the mill, which is very well trammed and I use my dial gauge in the quill to measure the vertical and radial dimensions, but like I said, it is an exercise in patience. I also have a bore gauge but that is even more of a pain to use even though it is a Mitutoyo (you need to put a piston with at least one ring on it down the bore to provide a support for the feeler to make sure you are measuring at a constant height all the way around, and then move the piston at different heights and take measurements all the way around).

    If I had to do another engine and wanted to reuse liners, I would go up to 1605 ccm and bore the liners from 1565 just make sure the bores are good. That is .5mm or so increase in bore size, easy to bore and with the best reliability and quality of results. You would still need to buy a set of 1605 pistons with rings beforehand so your machinist has them on hand.

    As you can see, it's not that simple, and in my opinion not worth it. For 600 bucks or so (or was that Euro? - can't remember) plus postage you can get a piston and liner kit form Mecaparts and just chuck it in (after measuring things, of course, but the set I got from them for my 17G engine was pretty damn good, pistons were within .5 of a gram of each other, rings perfect, liners spot on).

    The real problem is when you start measuring the crankshaft and find how much you need to grind it, and then the main bearing tunnel and find the block is distorted and you need a line bore, and then you need new bearings for the new bore and so on.

    To recap, you need to start by checking the main bearing tunnel, line bore if necessary, then deck the block with the liners in so you can keep an eye on how much they'll project above the block.

    If the block was distorted, I would check the camshaft bearings are aligned as well.

    After that is all done, you need to grind the crankshaft. After that you will have the block bore and the crank journal sizes you need to work with so now you can figure out what size bearings you need.

    Next, you need to look at the big ends of your conrods (and small ends, see below). These may need a hone as well. Do that and now you can order your big end bearings.

    The small end bushings need checked too and re-bushed if necessary.

    When all of that is sorted you can put together the bottom end, and move on to pistons, rings and liner excelnyl or o-ring gaskets. If you have an o-ring block, you need to machine the liners to adjust protrusion, there is no other way. If the liners are too low, you should have decked the block more (told you to deck it first).

    If you have a flat liner seat (excelnyl) block, you have more options but again, you should have decked the block with the liners in.

    So you see, it's all fun and games.

    Still with me?
    Umm... Forgive me Shiltzie, but I'm not sure I'll be seeking the degree precision you describe.

    Last week I used the crank, pistons and liners I have as part of a measuring exercise for one of my classes.

    Sadly that didn't make things any clearer at all...

    P
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  18. #18
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    All of that is not to achieve a certain degree of precision but a reliable measure of what the engine state is.

    If you wanted a degree of precision I would need to specify what dial gauge to use, what ambient temperature and so on. I use commercially available measuring instrumentation with 0.01mm precision because this is what I need to measure.

    I have found problems that lead me to pay attention to these things. Building my 17G engine I had found a problem with one of the crank journals and chasing it, it was revealed the problem was with the main bearing caps and the alignment of the tunnel. Someone had been in there before me and they had done a crap job, so I had to pick up the pieces. Same about the camshaft, the head and so on. In the end it turned out that engine was such a basket case I didn't use any of the bits. Not one. Even the camshaft was reground from a TL camshaft with the G specs. You might be lucky, but you won't know unless you measure things (or just put the thing together and see what happens - but in this case why measure at all?).

    To pick but one job on your list, if you regrind the camshaft, you need to reface the followers as well and then you need to run these in to the camshaft. Not a problem, but costly and time consuming, and you can't cut corners, because an old follower will eat your freshly reground camshaft in no time flat. Refacing the followers you might find they have gone too far and the wear pad on them is gone. New followers needed. Another can of worms.

    And then you might find (as I did) that the rockers have side play because they are worn unevenly side to side and the rocker shaft has matching uneven wear and the rocker arm can wobble in all directions on the shaft so you need to reface both and match them. And in my experience all the 807 type engines I have opened there was not one without this problem, by the way.

    I'll stop here, but the idea is that you need a lot of time, patience and money to rebuild an engine like the 807 and there are some things you best avoid if you don't want a brand new engine. Let sleeping dogs lie.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 26th February 2018 at 01:45 AM.
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