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    Fellow Frogger! R8philSA's Avatar
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    Icon12 what engine oil should I use R16TS

    Hi Guys.

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    Sorry if I've asked this question before but my search didn't show anything up.

    So, I have a rebuilt R16TS engine, new rings but existing mains and big ends. I do have a newly ground camshaft which is installed ready to run with Cam Lube smothering it. I do know about the first 30minutes at 2000RPM bed in time for the camshaft lobes.

    From the experts out there, tell me what you think I should use as my first oil into the engine probably be in it for first 1000Klms. I'm not intending to go synthetic, just good quality mineral oil.

    I'm all ears

    Cheers
    Phil

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    Interesting of what answers you will get Phil. I was thinking about the same subject. As I'm having an engine built professionally, what will they use? And after run in, what oil from there on. I will follow this thread with keen interest.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shoji View Post
    As I'm having an engine built professionally, what will they use?
    How about just asking the person at the source? I'm sure they will have the longevity of the motor, their workmanship and a warranty of the motor in mind.

    Otherwise you may hear something from a best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend, who heard from this guy who knows this kid who's had a really good run with some really cheap oil - that ends up ruining the motor the first time you use it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by R8philSA View Post
    Hi Guys.

    Sorry if I've asked this question before but my search didn't show anything up.

    So, I have a rebuilt R16TS engine, new rings but existing mains and big ends. I do have a newly ground camshaft which is installed ready to run with Cam Lube smothering it. I do know about the first 30minutes at 2000RPM bed in time for the camshaft lobes.

    From the experts out there, tell me what you think I should use as my first oil into the engine probably be in it for first 1000Klms. I'm not intending to go synthetic, just good quality mineral oil.

    I'm all ears

    Cheers
    Phil
    Agree with Simon, ask your engine builder.

    I used nylon 'run in' oil after my fuego engine rebuild.

    https://www.penriteoil.com.au/produc...SAAEgLOefD_BwE

    Then I switched to a synthetic.

    Jo

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    Everyone will have a preferred oil and a story to go with their opinion. Just wait for them all to come rolling in then make a choice.
    I guess you also have a story to support your opinion on not going synthetic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bustamif View Post
    I guess you also have a story to support your opinion on not going synthetic.
    The story I read, was for running in, high amounts of friction modifiers found in synthetic oil will impede the bedding in of the rings/bore.

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    Elf make a great semi synth that rates at sn/cf 20w 50. My aunts sisters nephew thinks its great! Make your own call
    4's 16's and Caravelle

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    Never run an engine in at fixed revs.
    Vary the revs up and down so if there is a harmonic at 2000RPM it won't affect the engine at this speed forever
    Also seats the rings in better
    Varying load up and down is also good for the rings
    I have only ever used oil whatever the spec was for the original engine design.
    Once done drop oil change filter

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    Fellow Frogger! R8philSA's Avatar
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    The very reason I'm steering away from synthetic oils. Great after the engine is run in but terrible when your trying to seat the rings.
    Thanks for your comments Jo.
    Cheers
    Phil


    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi View Post
    The story I read, was for running in, high amounts of friction modifiers found in synthetic oil will impede the bedding in of the rings/bore.

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    Hi,

    I have some as well.

    To Driven. True what you say however in Phil's case he will have to do as he says due to the 807 engine cam issues and the fact that the car will not be road tested at the time he starts up.

    I believe in mineral oil for old engines. Personally used oil is Penrite 20W-60 for racing as well as street car. I never knew Penrite before I came to NZ but I liked it a lot when I refreshed the race car engine after 3 or 4 years and I contemplated of putting the old bearings shells back, that's how good they were.

    In the 1800 807 engine that was done for the A110 here in NZ we used Motul Mineral as well but I find it too expensive.

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    In my recent rebuild of the 205GTI engine I used a good quality run in mineral oil (Penrite) to which I added Zn additive from Lucas (break in oil additive) to bring the zinc content to spec (can't remember what concentration, you can read it all on the interwebs and calculate what concentration you need for your engine so you can adjust the oil concentration to exactly what you want) and went for the Frans method of cam run in (20 minutes at above 2000RPM varying up and and down a bit) after which I changed the oil to the same run in oil as above and took the car on an extended fang running through all the gears from low revs (1200rpm) to about 4500rpm and the occasional blip above. I did about 500km like that avoiding idling at traffic lights (keep revs above 1250 or so). Both cam run in and drive were done the same day with a cool down and inspect camshaft break in between. After that I changed the filter and the oil to my usual Penrite 20W50 mineral as per normal. Engine runs beautifully and shows no issues at 5000km now, camshaft and followers (buckets) are nice and shiny.

    In your case, I would suggest you wait until you can drive the car. No point doing half the job and then wait another few years before you find out there was some problem. And if there is any problem, you might as well find out immediately rather than some years down the track.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 22nd February 2018 at 05:58 PM.
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    Hi Phil

    I too was told to steer away from synthetic oils. Good for modern, not so good for 'old engines' for the above reasons.

    I was advised to use a high quality mineral oil, something like Castrol Edge with Titanium 25W-50 (was told V8 SuperCars used this oil).

    My engine of course is the R5 1.4 crossflow engine. Changed after around 800km (with oil filter), and came out quite a bit darker as expected when compared to the fresh oil (it now has in).

    Angelo

    what engine oil should I use R16TS-img_6050.jpg

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    Thanks Angelo. Sounds good to me. Be interested to see if Shoji contacts his engine builder and to see what he recommends.

    Simon has point. Engine builders should know through experience. I'll be tuned to this thread to find out.

    cheers Phil



    Quote Originally Posted by R8 Dream View Post
    Hi Phil

    I too was told to steer away from synthetic oils. Good for modern, not so good for 'old engines' for the above reasons.

    I was advised to use a high quality mineral oil, something like Castrol Edge with Titanium 25W-50 (was told V8 SuperCars used this oil).

    My engine of course is the R5 1.4 crossflow engine. Changed after around 800km (with oil filter), and came out quite a bit darker as expected when compared to the fresh oil (it now has in).

    Angelo

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    Veni Vidi Posti 68 404's Avatar
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    I'd use Kmart/Big W mineral oil of the correct specification for your engine.
    Dump it (and change the filter) after 1500km. Make sure you vary your engine speeds during the break in process and allow the car to labour in a too high gear. You know the drill.
    Then you can run whatever decent oil you wish.

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    My worth that has worked for me.

    I build my engines with the oil i'm going to run in them, if installing a new cam I use molybdenum disulfide grease on the cam lobes.

    The oil that I have been using in my older Renault engines has been Valvoline. At present I am using Valvoline XLD Classic 20W50 https://www.autobarn.com.au/valvolin...w50-5l-1011-57.

    There have been many a discussion on running in an engines, but definitely no prolonged idling or lugging of the engine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by R8philSA View Post
    Thanks Angelo. Sounds good to me. Be interested to see if Shoji contacts his engine builder and to see what he recommends. Simon has point. Engine builders should know through experience. I'll be tuned to this thread to find out. cheers Phil
    Shoji's engine builder knows his stuff.

    My observation is that last engine rebuild I did was 1988 in the R8. I used a straight mineral oil for running in, NO friction modifiers. It has done at least 100,00 km since and I haven't touched it other than oil and filter changes. Most of its life I have used Shell Helix, the bog standard one, and in recent years I've used Penrite High Zinc 20-60 and changed it annually or every 5000 km if I've done a big trip. No worries sums it up.

    The previous rebuild was the 4cv in 1970. Straight mineral oil to run in, then Castrol XL, Shell Helix and now the Penrite oil. No worries there either, and I guess about 100,000 km. No oil filter but annual changes regardless of km. There's a bit of bore wear (poor air filter until recently) but it doesn't use much oil.

    My only concern with a 16TS engine would be the camshaft/followers, and others know far more than I do on this subject.

    Cheers
    JohnW

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post
    How about just asking the person at the source? I'm sure they will have the longevity of the motor, their workmanship and a warranty of the motor in mind.
    I forgot to ask Ray today of what oil he prefers/recommends but plenty of time
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    1000+ Posts geckoeng's Avatar
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    Phil,
    Seeing everybody wants me to put in my 2 cents, here it is........ !!!

    First Schlitz is right, do not start up engine and set everything and then leave it standing or non road/driving run ups. Wait till car is done and run engine in as soon after start up as possible. Even if you tack it to a track day and just circulate at good RPM.

    I used to be a Valvoline or Mobil man, but they seem not to supply simple mineral oils in multigrades in WA. So I have used Penrite HPR30 20w-60, and had good success with it. It has good Zinc levels. I do 1500-1600km to run in, at varying RPM 2000-4000, with good acceleration runs, and 1200 at traffic lights and such. Always keep the revs up, even staying in 3rd/4th gear. Although accelerating to 4000-5000 in all gears, into top gear is very good for it.

    I have not run in a race motor for many years, as most have been run on the dyno for 2 hours with computer rev patterns running through them. Put in the car and thrashed.

    With the 2 cents gone I feel lighter !!!

    Ray
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    Quote Originally Posted by geckoeng View Post
    Phil,

    I used to be a Valvoline or Mobil man, but they seem not to supply simple mineral oils in multigrades in WA. So I have used Penrite HPR30 20w-60, and had good success with it. It has good Zinc levels.


    Ray
    Me too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunroof View Post
    Me too.
    Me too for several years now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    Me too for several years now.

    Without being critical of any of the contributions above, I'm reminded of an article that I read many years ago.
    In the 1950s, Vauxhall in the UK conducted and experiment with the running in of new cars.
    With one group, they gave detailed instructions as loadings, speed and rev limits etc.
    With the other, they said something like - "Your car has been run in at the factory and you can drive it normally straight away"
    After a period, the two groups were re-called and the engines stripped and measured. There wasn't much difference between them, but the 'drive normally' group came out ahead overall.

    I'm also reminded of the running in of modern Renaults. You collect your new car and then re-appear after one year (or 15000km) for the first service. I'm not entirely happy with that approach, but it seems to work!

    When I rebuilt the engine of my Dauphine three years ago, I used a 10W/40 oil with 'full zinc'. I then drove it fairly normally and changed oil after 500km and again after 1,000km. Apart from having enough ZDDP for cam and follower lubrication, I doubt that the precise oil grade matters much. Also, I doubt that it matters if it is synthetic or non-synthetic. Synthetic oil has more stable molecules, but the advantage only shows up 'in extremis' or in long term use. The use of 'friction modifiers' is also debatable, either during running in or for normal use. There's an argument either way.

    Finally, for the record, I use full synthetic oils in both my 'moderns' and my Dauphine. It is probably wasteful in the Dauphine since I change oil at least a couple of times a year, because it doesn't have an oil filter. I use a MoS2 additive in the Dauphine, but not in the moderns. I'm not worried whether or not I have 'high zinc' in my moderns, because they have roller cam followers. This regime is probably wasteful, but it seems to work for me! I'm happy to accept that other regimes might work just as well, or maybe better!

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    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harrisonati View Post
    Without being critical of any of the contributions above, I'm reminded of an article that I read many years ago.
    In the 1950s, Vauxhall in the UK conducted and experiment with the running in of new cars.
    With one group, they gave detailed instructions as loadings, speed and rev limits etc.
    With the other, they said something like - "Your car has been run in at the factory and you can drive it normally straight away"
    After a period, the two groups were re-called and the engines stripped and measured. There wasn't much difference between them, but the 'drive normally' group came out ahead overall.

    I'm also reminded of the running in of modern Renaults. You collect your new car and then re-appear after one year (or 15000km) for the first service. I'm not entirely happy with that approach, but it seems to work!

    When I rebuilt the engine of my Dauphine three years ago, I used a 10W/40 oil with 'full zinc'. I then drove it fairly normally and changed oil after 500km and again after 1,000km. Apart from having enough ZDDP for cam and follower lubrication, I doubt that the precise oil grade matters much. Also, I doubt that it matters if it is synthetic or non-synthetic. Synthetic oil has more stable molecules, but the advantage only shows up 'in extremis' or in long term use. The use of 'friction modifiers' is also debatable, either during running in or for normal use. There's an argument either way.

    Finally, for the record, I use full synthetic oils in both my 'moderns' and my Dauphine. It is probably wasteful in the Dauphine since I change oil at least a couple of times a year, because it doesn't have an oil filter. I use a MoS2 additive in the Dauphine, but not in the moderns. I'm not worried whether or not I have 'high zinc' in my moderns, because they have roller cam followers. This regime is probably wasteful, but it seems to work for me! I'm happy to accept that other regimes might work just as well, or maybe better!
    Speaking of zddp, I have tin of the stuff if any one wants it…..Pick up only, in sydney.
    Now that I have a newish low Km diesel which someone else services, I can't see myself ever using it.
    Jo

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harrisonati View Post
    Without being critical of any of the contributions above, I'm reminded of an article that I read many years ago.
    In the 1950s, Vauxhall in the UK conducted and experiment with the running in of new cars.
    With one group, they gave detailed instructions as loadings, speed and rev limits etc.
    With the other, they said something like - "Your car has been run in at the factory and you can drive it normally straight away"
    After a period, the two groups were re-called and the engines stripped and measured. There wasn't much difference between them, but the 'drive normally' group came out ahead overall.

    I'm also reminded of the running in of modern Renaults. You collect your new car and then re-appear after one year (or 15000km) for the first service. I'm not entirely happy with that approach, but it seems to work!

    [...]
    I can see that is all fine and dandy ON CONDITION the camshaft doesn't have to be run in. If the camshaft is not work hardened and you just go and drive it, you won't get very far.

    In modern cars the break in is done in the design (as in engines are so well engineered they need little break in if any). Manufacturing tolerances and materials are not what they used to be. How many high spots would you expect in something machined by robots to the nth decimal place from pre-treated material of the right spec? Outliers are kept at a minuscule minimum and covered by warranty and service programming.

    With old cars, I am pretty sure the camshaft was hardened before engine assembly (I can assure you it was done for Renaults sold in Europe, because that is what I had, not sure for others but I suspect they too were ready to go).

    Break in procedures still live only because old geezers like us like to mess around with engines. Any modern engine shooting out the assembly line today is ready to go. The only thing you can do to kill it is to drive the car at idle for extended periods of time and glaze the bores.
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    It is a long time since I've had a cam reground. Yes, cam lobes used to be hardened and probably still are! In the old days, you could get away with regrinding as long as it wasn't too wild a profile, and then had the lobes 'Molybonded' or 'Lubrizolled?'. My main problem in the past has been with followers, not with the lobes of the cam.
    I didn't change to cam when I rebuilt the Dauphine engine, so I didn't expect (or experience) any problems.

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    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 68 404 View Post
    I'd use Kmart/Big W mineral oil of the correct specification for your engine.
    Dump it (and change the filter) after 1500km. Make sure you vary your engine speeds during the break in process and allow the car to labour in a too high gear. You know the drill.
    Then you can run whatever decent oil you wish.

    Dave
    I was involved in miniís and acquainted with a man who builds and races a lot of group nc minis - Graham Russell of Russell Engineering here in Sydney. He is THE man to go to for mini and many other engine builds and mods. Like Dave, he recommends Kmart KMX oil for run in and dump it straight away and replace. Since minis circulate the oil in both the engine and gearbox combined, they normally change oil and filter every 5000 miles anyhow. His words, itís cheap and it works.

    Graham backs up his knowledge and recommendation with dyno charts as he has his own engine dyno. Obviously the nc engines are rebuilt more frequently, but his recommendation doesnít change for the many road engines he builds for people to my knowledge.

    KB
    KB


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