Smoothing a 12 Ts Inleft Manifold?
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Default Smoothing a 12 Ts Inleft Manifold?

    That other thread talking about inlet manifolds and other goodies got me thinking back to the 12TS stuff I've been collecting for my pov-pack Solex equipped 12.

    With air flow in mind, I noted some curious detail left in the standard 12TS inlet manifold.

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    Smoothing a 12 Ts Inleft Manifold?-img_20180210_185958036.jpgSmoothing a 12 Ts Inleft Manifold?-img_20180210_190011372.jpg

    This is looking down from the top and in from the head.

    Are these curious marks just left from the mold to assist in mass production, or do they actually serve some mystical purpose?

    I could nearly believe the bridges cut at the start (directly under the webber housing) could be there to assist in port tuning, ie capturing a reflected pulse wave and sending it back towards the soon to be open valve, but the ridges on the inside of the runner, they stick out a good couple of mm, are nearly a full cm in thickness, and blend into the top where it meets the ridge in effort to separate the runners somewhat.

    I'm tempted to open the dremel and smooth them both out, so before I do.... Is this really some kind of crude / sophisticated port smoothing?

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    I lean to them being there for a purpose. Factories don't complicate anything unless its cheaper, easier, or worth it for economy or performance. Those look like they have been put there on purpose. I didn't remove either of mine.

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    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    I wonder if they are there to take some surface area out of the runner, and bring peek torque down?

    Doing the math, each runner is about 27mm in diameter where it meats the head, a quick calculator, and peak torque lands at 5000rpm.
    Adding in the bulge it brings it back down to 25~mm, and torque at 4200~rpm.

    That's probably a better figure for the output of these 810's?

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    The short answer is they are there for a purpose related to gas flow. The details of the particular purpose opens up a whole universe of engine performance tuning theory and practice which you would need to study for about the next 4 years to get a full understanding of.
    In order to establish exactly what you need to modify or shape you first have to do all the calculations and then use a flow bench complete with head, exhaust headers and inlet manifold to test the various mods in addition to an engine dyno to look at the power curve. The mods will depend on the cam profile, lift, duration, overlap, shape of piston, compression ratio, fuel and the list goes on. It would also involve having a big pile of manifolds to try different ideas, creating different shapes in putty inside the manifold, testing the effect then trying again. Flow bench testing can go on for years, playing with pulses and flow to find an optimum for the engine configuration and use. Some combinations will work best with rough surfaces and others may work with a highly polished surface. Without an engine dyno or flow bench the old school way is lots of road testing, data acquisition, trial and error.
    The short answer is just clean up any casting imperfections and sharp edges inside and make sure the manifold, carb and the head are all blended to match with no sharp edges or steps.
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    Great explaination Bustamif. Clear and concise.
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    Interesting. Here's an R10 1300 inlet manifold, also about 27 mm inlet tracts. Below the Weber is a flat plate, as of course the inlet bolts onto the exhaust.

    My 956 R8 inlet manifold has inlets about the same size, a smidgeon larger if anything.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Smoothing a 12 Ts Inleft Manifold?-r10-1300-inlet-manifold-1.jpg   Smoothing a 12 Ts Inleft Manifold?-r10-1300-inlet-manifold-2.jpg  
    JohnW

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    JohnW,

    I'm not sure that is a R10 1300 inlet. My R10 1300 (New Zealand assembled) was factory fitted with a single choke Solex/inlet manifold.
    However, the R10 1300 which I owned in S. Africa, had a twin choke inlet but with an adaptor plate to accept the factory fitted 1-choke Solex, thereby making fitting of 2-choke Weber very easy. Maybe that is a S.A. example.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rubyalpine View Post
    JohnW,

    I'm not sure that is a R10 1300 inlet. My R10 1300 (New Zealand assembled) was factory fitted with a single choke Solex/inlet manifold.
    However, the R10 1300 which I owned in S. Africa, had a twin choke inlet but with an adaptor plate to accept the factory fitted 1-choke Solex, thereby making fitting of 2-choke Weber very easy. Maybe that is a S.A. example.
    f.y.i.
    Henry
    Thanks Henry. Many variants I guess! This came off an R10 1300 motor that I recently acquired, from probably the only R10 1300 imported to WA. I suspect it came from UK but don't really know. Equally, who knows what happened to the engine earlier. I suspect that it wasn't changed but you can't be 100%. Exfrogger might comment, as he acquired the engine that I now have. In Oz, the R10S had a manifold like the one I have, i.e. with a dual throat downdraft Weber and the eight-port head.

    Cheers
    JohnW

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    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Thanks for your reply Bustamif.

    Yes I understand all that (well the concept that they are all related to one another), I didn't mean to sound as if I wanted I lesson in fluid dynamic but appreciate I came across like that.

    This head / inlet I'm playing with is unlikely to see a flow bench so I'm not going to get to carried away. Your direction to smooth the edges and joining surfaces is what I'll be doing none the less.

    Never the less, I took the part to work and asked a fabricator, he reckons it's just left over from the mold as it was a two piece construction.

    JohnW. I can't see in your image, are there ridges on the inside of the runner like the one I have here?

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    "bowie',
    JohnW's manifold is originally off of an 1108 R10S (world and ZA), they were fitted to the 1300 R10 as well. Both with 32/36 Webers. The R16TS Weber flowed better at top revs, so were always changed to those. They always worked best on R12s as well.

    R12s need the flat manifold so you retain bonnet clearance. Alconi made a very nice unit that flowed very well. The one in the bottom of the picture and the one attached to the cylinder head.

    Porting the head : You will not feel anything less than 2mm in diam, with standard valves, you need to go at least 3mm bigger in diam for a good street head on a 1300cc, and then match the inlet manifold. Try and take most of the meat off the roof of the port, and you need to keep all of the ports very similar. Taper shape to valve pocket. Round ports are better for what you want. Do not cut any of the valve guide for street motors. Remember the material you cut out gets closer to the core, so starting thickness of material is best about 6mm. See sectioned R16TS head.

    Enjoy,
    Ray

    Smoothing a 12 Ts Inleft Manifold?-r16-head-sect-1.jpgSmoothing a 12 Ts Inleft Manifold?-wedge-head-inlet-manifolds.jpg
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowie View Post
    JohnW. I can't see in your image, are there ridges on the inside of the runner like the one I have here?
    No. The manifold has an open bottom, not a casting, and there is a flat plate where it bolts down to the exhaust manifold in the area of the ridges on your manifold. You can see the bright, shiny area where it is flat, because I sat it on a flat metal dish to take the photograph.
    JohnW

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    If you rotate Johns pictures of his manifold it makes the idea of the flat plate much clearer.
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    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Ah sorry lads, I was speaking after the ridges sticking out of the wall in the runner as apposed to the bottom of the plenum chamber.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bowie View Post
    That other thread talking about inlet manifolds and other goodies got me thinking back to the 12TS stuff I've been collecting for my pov-pack Solex equipped 12.

    With air flow in mind, I noted some curious detail left in the standard 12TS inlet manifold.

    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	103450Click image for larger version. 

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    This is looking down from the top and in from the head.

    Are these curious marks just left from the mold to assist in mass production, or do they actually serve some mystical purpose?

    I could nearly believe the bridges cut at the start (directly under the webber housing) could be there to assist in port tuning, ie capturing a reflected pulse wave and sending it back towards the soon to be open valve, but the ridges on the inside of the runner, they stick out a good couple of mm, are nearly a full cm in thickness, and blend into the top where it meets the ridge in effort to separate the runners somewhat.

    I'm tempted to open the dremel and smooth them both out, so before I do.... Is this really some kind of crude / sophisticated port smoothing?
    "bowie"
    As for the inlet manifold you have a lot of work to do to make this manifold work better. The entire area inside the plenum chamber needs to be made bigger. Again remember too much and you need to have tings welded back. Plenum into the runners needs to be opened as much as you can get into the runners. I have made and seen some very inventive tools for taking meat out of the bends, be creative. A small Dremel is just too small to do the job. I have a plug in the wall die grinder with tungsten tips and 2 of them have 75mm shanks. I have also used a 6mm plug in the wall drill I have also made short flexible drives with very course abrasive heads, that you can sand the ports out, right in the bends. Tedious !!!!

    It is all removal of material in the runners to allow air to flow more. So just clean it out !!!

    Ray
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    Quote Originally Posted by geckoeng View Post
    "bowie"
    As for the inlet manifold you have a lot of work to do to make this manifold work better. The entire area inside the plenum chamber needs to be made bigger. Again remember too much and you need to have tings welded back. Plenum into the runners needs to be opened as much as you can get into the runners. I have made and seen some very inventive tools for taking meat out of the bends, be creative. A small Dremel is just too small to do the job. I have a plug in the wall die grinder with tungsten tips and 2 of them have 75mm shanks. I have also used a 6mm plug in the wall drill I have also made short flexible drives with very course abrasive heads, that you can sand the ports out, right in the bends. Tedious !!!!

    It is all removal of material in the runners to allow air to flow more. So just clean it out !!!

    Ray


    It will be interesting to see what you do with my manifolds and 16 ts head Ray. Can't wait for the low down and viewing of your hard work in the future.

    Go easy on the grinding Bowie
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    I once had a 17G head left porus into the water jacket by just a small amount of grinding. Yet others have been ok.

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    I had a similar experience that Sunroof mentioned !
    I had a professional Automotive machine shop do valve job on a 1289 head it all looked good and when I installed it and sounded good . After the test run of the engine and cool down I checked the oil and the level was way up ! I tore the engine down a couple more times trying to find why I had a leak only to be frustrated not finding anything . I finally took the head apart and found that the machine shop had ground into a water jacket when using a grinding stone on the valve seats ! The result was that when the engine warmed up it would start to leak and when cooled off the small crack would close up again .

    Care is needed when porting these heads !

    Manic GT


    Quote Originally Posted by Sunroof View Post
    I once had a 17G head left porus into the water jacket by just a small amount of grinding. Yet others have been ok.

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    That is why pressure testing is done before and after on the heads.

    Ray
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowie View Post
    Ah sorry lads, I was speaking after the ridges sticking out of the wall in the runner as apposed to the bottom of the plenum chamber.
    If you mean ridges at the start of the runner, I think Geckoeng's advice covers that. I'll have a look up them and see if there is anything photographable, just out of interest.
    JohnW

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    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Yes it's just morbid curiosity at this point. This inlet manifold came with a 32DIR for what its worth, not the larger 32/36 from a 16.

    Anyway, I think I'll use a gasket as a template and remove / blend everything into that. can't hurt providing I stop short of the water jacket and push rods. There is a bit of material to eat at, I'll be conservative, and I wont go deeper then an inch on the inlet to stay away from the push rods, and I wont go more then 3-4mm on the bottom of the exhaust ports to be clear away from the water jacket.

    Smoothing a 12 Ts Inleft Manifold?-img_20180213_232939590.jpgSmoothing a 12 Ts Inleft Manifold?-img_20180213_232810572.jpgSmoothing a 12 Ts Inleft Manifold?-img_20180213_232956550.jpgSmoothing a 12 Ts Inleft Manifold?-img_20180213_232950780.jpg

    I will go to town on the inlet manifold however because why not Thinking of increasing the plenum size, I'll measure the clearance with a weber on and see if one just cant fit a couple of poly/carb spacers under the carb before it hits the bonnet. Might even help keep it a smidge cooler.

    Now having said all that, this gasket doesn't line up super well. Is it a bit of take what one can get with 810 gaskets at this point?

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    Dude.

    Get a piece of carpet tape.

    Stick one side to the head.

    Stick some nice, clean white paper to the other side.

    Now smudge some greasy fingers on the intake and bring it in to mate and press firmly to leave a good outline on the paper.

    Take off manifold.

    There you have it. A perfect print of where the manifold sits.

    Now you know where to take material and how much.

    If you want to go all OCD, you can figure out a way to index the manifold to the head.
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    The original manifold gasket is pretty poor really so I bought a big sheet of manifold gasket material for $30 and cut my own so as there was no spaces. Bit hard to cut but I have a wad punch just right for either the intake or the exhaust (can't remember which ) the rest took some fiddling but I felt it was worth the trouble. My car came with extractors which were a very poor match and I improved them as well. Not sure if the power increase was even noticeable. I guess only a dyno would tell.

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    Default Manifold to head matching etc

    The technique that I use to match manifold to head is to:
    1 - Clean head and manifold and lightly grease jointing surfaces
    2 - Bolt manifold to head, without a gasket, in the position that it would be in normally
    3 - Blow chalk dust through both manifold and valve seats, so that overlaps are revealed in both directions
    4 - Study and optimise manifold position if practical. Remember that any special positioning of the manifold must be easily and reliably repeatable. Consider the use of sleeves on studs &/or spacers but do leave a bit of 'wriggle room' for expansion and contraction.
    5 - Mark out final overlaps lines by lightly centre punching.
    6 - Carry out porting and polishing of both head and manifold, leaving the matching of ports to manifold as the last procedure.
    7 - As for porting:
    a- Certainly enlarge the plenum
    b - Only enlarge ports by a couple on millimetre and smooth all surfaces. Ideally ports should taper down in size as you approach the valve, but this isn't always practical. You don't need a mirror finish on ports, but polishing of combustion chambers helps restrict carbon build up. Don't think that bigger is necessarily better - the port sizes are already reasonably generous and you need to keep gas velocities high enough to retain power in the mid-range
    c - The combustion chamber should be shaped to minimise the shrouding of valves. As a general rule, remove the minimum of metal necessary to help keep the compression high. If you have the head 'shaved', leave that until you have finished your combustion chamber mods and be moderate with the thickness removed. Finally, all edges should be lightly radiused.
    d- The edges of the ground seating area on the valve should be lightly radiused
    e. Valve chokes should be enlarged and blended
    f. When lapping valves, the objective should be to have the actual lapped seat (contact annulus) toward the outer third of the valve seat insert. The width of the contact annulus should be about 1mm for inlets and 1.5mm for exhausts.
    The objective is to get maximum flow through your standard valves by increasing their effective diameter and reducing shrouding. Increased valve size does not automatically increase flow. Remember that Renaults typically have relatively small bores and larger valves have the potential to bring the edge of the valve too close to the wall of the combustion chamber, thus introducing sufficient shrouding to negate any advantage. Also, remember that a larger valve is heavier!
    8. For the final matching of manifold to head, some compromise may be necessary because of design of manifold &/or head. However, matching these is probably the most productive thing that you'll do in the whole procedure! Once you have matched these, check alignment again using the grease and chalk dust procedure. Finally, lightly radius the periphery of ports on both sides of the joint. These components may move slightly relative to each other with differential expansion due to different materials and differences in temperatures etc.
    9. Make up a new gasket for the manifold to head joint, taking care to avoid overlaps.


    I hope that I haven't forgotten anything important. The procedures are possible with a minimum of equipment but do require a bit of ingenuity! I've always had good results and I hope that you do as well!
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    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Harry that post was amazing.

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    Bowie, get yourself a copy of David Vizard's book on heads and stuff.
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