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Thread: EFI/Individual throttle bodies on old renaults

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReidarUF View Post
    @c.lees: I would deffinately convert to itb. And the paired gsxr ones should be a good choice. Sandy Brown in England have made a really nice setup for the Peugeot 106 16v/gti. He is using 1000/750 bodies but the 600 are basicly the same. The spacing on the pug is 90mm but as you see he have avoided spacing the bodies. I know from experience there is good reasons for that...
    Attachment 104114

    That is an interesting setup, do you know how they throttle bodies have been connected to the tubes? The only ones I've seen so har use silicon tubes to connect them as that is how they are connected on the bike.

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  2. #27
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    On the GSXR there is actually a rubber coupler/inlet with a vulcanised metal flange that is bolted to the cylinder head.

    There is a grove on the "tube" on the bodies for this coupler to not to slide off. On theese kits this groove is used as an O-ring groove. Its not perfect as such but seem to seal good enough in the holes in the flange. There is also small metal brackets that secures the bodies to the flange.

    I bought one of theese inlets second hand as I thought it was better than my own setup but I sold the car and inlet before fitting it. Anyway I plan to rob this design for another engine later.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReidarUF View Post
    I havent paied much attention to the second butterfly setup but I think Alan Moore sums it up pretty good. The gsxr itbs I used on my Pug 106 also had them but I just removed them and plugged the holes.

    What is interresting is the system to make them work in conjunktion with the main butterflies. There is a cam lobe on the second butterfly axle that works against an adjustable arm on the axle on the main butterfly axle. I think this adjustment can be made into a balance adjustment between the two bodies.
    Attachment 104045

    @3006882: Your setup looks good. Sometimes the dcoe bodies are just perfect. But I think you make it seem a bit complicated. Cam trigger is not really needed when running wasted spark and batch fire the injectors. And my 106 was idling nicely without any idle control other than some tweeks in the software.
    Well I'm certain I've made it more complicated than it needed to be, but I was partially doing it to teach myself EFI tuning, so I wanted sequential injection and ignition. The cam trigger turned out to be a fairly easy fix using an off the shelf aftermarket cam trigger unit from the US made for an air cooled VW EFI conversion that replaces the distributor and making a new shaft for it.
    I also have long term visions of a small twin scroll turbo on it, so the extra tuneability can't hurt.
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  4. #29
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    Working on the pattern for the inlet manifolds.





    After adding some bondo and details



    Last edited by Reidar; 17th January 2020 at 11:02 AM.
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  5. #30
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    Big step today as I did my first green sand casting. Pretty good I think but adjustments is needed to the sentre distance of the cores. Shrinkage was less than I though so the core tabs on the model is a bit too far apart. Also I´m not sure of the "trademark" RF. My full initials is RUF but thats allready taken. I´m thinking of RF8

    [IMG]118213[/IMG]

    [IMG]118214[/IMG]

    [IMG]118215[/IMG]

    [IMG]118217[/IMG]

    [IMG]118216[/IMG]
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  6. #31
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    Hey, not too shabby. Are you going FI?
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

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  7. #32
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    What are you using for your core material?
    Heres a manifold I made for my Simca 1000 a few years ago.

    Photo Sep 22, 4 04 37 PM.jpg

    Cores .jpg

    Photo Sep 22, 5 33 35 PM.jpg
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  8. #33
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    @sclitzaugen: Yes, EFI. Not sure what system to use yet. I have an old South African one on the shelf but there is a new Sweedish system that looks promising. Maxxecu mini.

    @[email protected] identical project as mine but yours seems more elegant. Any pictures of it finished?
    My cores is paving sand with sodium silicate. I suspect yours is the same? And nice core box. Mine is a lengt of pvc pipe split in two.
    Last edited by Reidar; 18th January 2020 at 06:07 AM.

  9. #34
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    you guys forging your own parts.. Fantastic!

    Works: 2003 YV Commodore (That is Cecil to you)
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  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowie View Post
    you guys forging your own parts.. Fantastic!

    Casting.

    Forging is a bit beyond the home workshop:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bzhi4kRBNHU
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  11. #36
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    Sorry, I missed your reply. Yes, sodium silicate is what I used.
    I wish I could say my molds were hand made, but I carved them on my cnc router.

    simca manifold.jpg

    Photo May 14, 10 57 26 PM.jpg

    Photo Dec 04, 11 55 27 AM.jpg

    Photo Dec 04, 11 56 00 AM.jpg


    Quote Originally Posted by Reidar View Post
    @sclitzaugen: Yes, EFI. Not sure what system to use yet. I have an old South African one on the shelf but there is a new Sweedish system that looks promising. Maxxecu mini.

    @[email protected] identical project as mine but yours seems more elegant. Any pictures of it finished?
    My cores is paving sand with sodium silicate. I suspect yours is the same? And nice core box. Mine is a lengt of pvc pipe split in two.
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  12. #37
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    @Godzilla: Real nice! Seems like you made your own throttlebodies too?

  13. #38
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    If you have a CNC router, why not make the manifold itself on it?
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  14. #39
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    I made the cnc router in college as a means to make casting patterns and cut sheet goods. As such, it wasn't very stiff and couldnt cut alu very well.

    final no hood.jpg
    Photo Nov 30, 6 34 32 PM.jpg

    Later, I did get an old Tape-drive Hurco KMB-1 mill and converted it to run on windows.

    IMG_2136.JPG

    I used that machine to make a manifold for a souped up Fiat a buddy has. It used a single throat of an IDF Weber.

    15289267_10211212559935968_3452769287650725885_o.jpg
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  15. #40
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    Love home made workshop equipment, your a clever guy. But I guess the professional machine does it better or would that be easier?

  16. #41
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    I see. That Hurco looks like it could do the job nicely though.

    If you look up This Old Tony's channel on youtube, you will find a brother in arms. I think he is now trying to do the same CNC conversion on a Maho mill (which was sort of CNC back in the seventies).

    Would be a hell of a project though to make a four throat manifold on a CNC, even an industrial one, let alone a home brewed machine. But hey, if it works, it would be worth its weight in gold.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    If anyone is wondering whats the point in using such strange parts for my project they can have a look here:
    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/06-15-200...8796%7Ciid%3A1

  18. #43
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    They really look perfect. That spacing is great.

    Looking forward to how these end up for you

    Works: 2003 YV Commodore (That is Cecil to you)
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    @Bowie: What is the port spacing on your engine? These bodies have 47mm SS while my C2J have 45mm SS. The core prints on my model can easily be alterred a few mm. The model is now nearly finished for a new test. 6mm narrower and about 7mm shorter.

  20. #45
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    Realy tight.



    Here you can see one port on the way with the other left. You can also see the scratch marks out the outside that would match the standard DGV weber manifold, but with the standard valve in it, there isn't much point in making the inlet port bigger then the valve (if I understand my books correctly)

    The port spacing on these heads is crap next to your C1J's (which we didn't get).

    I'm going to end up with ~30mm inlet ports and maybe a ~1mm wall between them... I figured I would use a shared wall between the two runners when making the V manifold. Thankfully, because the angle is relatively steep out to the bike carbs I'm using, it should work ok. I was planning on using 30mm dai steel pipe with a wall thickness of 1.2mm and then slice up the ends and flare it out to accept these ~38mm throttles. Alla, something like this;



    Yes the carbs are huge, probably to big, but they where cheap to experiment with, and the kawasacki spacing doesn't really change much, and they flow similar to 45 DCOE's or said this chap I found who measured them. If i's crap a set of 600cc carbs will be fine. A success will be if it only makes power between 5k-7k by the time I get silly cam in it. So not to precious about it.
    Last edited by bowie; 27th January 2020 at 06:49 PM.

    Works: 2003 YV Commodore (That is Cecil to you)
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  21. #46
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Those Vulcan carbs however.. perhaps that is my plan B.

    Works: 2003 YV Commodore (That is Cecil to you)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car and Sunny the R12 Lego set.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16, Choo Choo'd Volvo S40
    Wanted Will hoard 12/15/17 Junk.

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

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    Looks like a challenge making a good four port inlet for that head. The flange will have to fit perfect with no play. I guess a few dowels would be an idea. Also you might also have to glue the manifold on to ensure no leak between 1-2 and 3-4.

    I guess those carbs are a bit on the big side. Size are more critical on carbs than on throttle bodies as they require better fliw to work properly.

  23. #48
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    yeah... sealing is going to suck.

    But enough about my mess, sitting tight for more news about your craftsmanship!

    Works: 2003 YV Commodore (That is Cecil to you)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car and Sunny the R12 Lego set.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16, Choo Choo'd Volvo S40
    Wanted Will hoard 12/15/17 Junk.

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  24. #49
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    G'day,

    Quote Originally Posted by Reidar View Post
    .......I guess those carbs are a bit on the big side. Size are more critical on carbs than on throttle bodies as they require better fliw to work properly.
    but don't be afraid to experiment with bigger....

    In an earlier life I had a Standard 10 [about 1 liter, 4cyl for the newer generation] that had a tiny Solex, this was initially replaced from the junk pile by a dual barrel unit from side valve Ford V8 - dumping both barrels at once. No problems at all, bit more go of course, and better economy !!

    This motor ended up with dual 1.5" SU carbs on a factory manifold produced for the Triumph Spitfire - part of a transformation exercise with the bores ending up 3/16" or so apart, compression around 11.5 and a big overlap cam. It went rather well....

    cheers,
    Bob

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    Renault R12G, R1063 etc. Always had massive carbies for the capacity of the engine. Weber recommend maximum of 2 X 40 mm DCOEs (4 barrels) for 1600 cc. Where as Renault fitted two by 45 mm DCOE carbs. The difficulty is getting the correct sizes for the various bits that can be changed.

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