Renault Virage drive shaft seals
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Thread: Renault Virage drive shaft seals

  1. #1
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    Default Renault Virage drive shaft seals

    I've had the auto transmission rebuilt for my Virage and it was all put together reasonably well, except they forgot to replace the leaking seals around the shafts where they emerge from the diff. Does anyone have any experience of the seals, or any idea where to get them? Failing that, the specs of the seals would be somewhere to start. I'm not even sure they are the same as in the diff of a manual Virage or R12.

    Any suggestions gratefully accepted!

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    COL
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    My only experience with these auto boxes from the Virage is to replace them with a manual.

    If the auto box is like the manual box you will be able to you will be able to change the seals without removing the gearbox, also the seals are most likely a standard size which would be available from your local bearing store.
    Regards Col

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    Thanks Col -- I have a manual box waiting in the wings just in case, but I actually like the auto box as it suits the engine very well, and in any case, getting it overhauled has cost me plenty. Looking at the drive shafts, it seems to me you are correct in saying the seals are almost certainly the same as in any other R12 diff, but on this occasion, I really need to have them on hand before the job is started.

    Cheers,
    Clive

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    I have never seen an auto R12 box, but aren't the seals felt type? Because those don't need to be replaced you just clean and re-oil them.
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    Note that there are a few different types. Some seals require the ring nuts to be removed to replace the seals, others can be replaced with the ring nuts in place. Also don't forget to replace the o-rings on the diff output shafts. Also seal the roll pin holes in the driveshafts when replaced with silicone (about the only place you should use silicone sealer on a car IMO :-)), otherwise oil can creep past through the splines and comes out through the roll pin holes (especially if the 0-rings are hardened/squashed).

    Post up the vehicle oval plate number and the transmission number (alloy tag on the top of the trans, 4139 -xxx) and I'll try to help with what type of seal would have been originally fitted.
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    Just opened up my R12 parts book that I have here and it has the exploded view of the auto box in it.

    The manual and auto seals are the same part number but they have quoted different sizes so I will give you the size of the manual because the auto has silly decimal points in it and the size does not look right.

    The manual gearbox drive shaft seal size is 36 x 54 x 11

    The "O" ring that Simon mentions is 30.2 x 23 x 3.6

    This is the P.R.1009 covering models R1330, R1337 & R1338
    Regards Col

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    It's hard to come by the original with ones with the felt outer seal but you can get plain seals at any bearing shop, cheap as chips.

    The tricky part is getting the ring nut in and out. Having the right tool is a huge advantage.
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    The problem with normal oil seals is the require a pretty close to perfect surface to seal on. The felt ones are more forgiving of imperfections.

    I would be very reluctant to take the ring nuts out. They're hard to get back in the exact position and this is going to affect the position of the diff bearings and the diff with potentially devastating consequences for the crownwheel/pinion mesh. I think this is why my 365 box destroyed itself.
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    Renault Virage drive shaft seals-pr1012.34.20.jpg
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    To remove the ring nuts and fit new seals you must mark where they must finish when you put them back. Use a dob of white and mark where they come out of the thread to ensure you start them at the right spot. Count the number of turns accurately. Only remove one nut at once. I have often tightened them slightly past the original mark because I figured that the bearings will have some wear. I have replaced plenty of seals this way and never had a diff fail yet. Now comes the problem. You really need the correct spanner/socket for this job. I have made one by welding bits of square onto a big bolt head. I had a spare ring nut to use as a jig. I have also used a punch but with much damage to lugs not recomended. By the way it is not possible to set the crown wheel and pinion on an auto like you can on a manual box. Although I did think I might drill a hole in the plate that seperates the diff from the engine and set the crown wheel and pinion and then seal up the hole.

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    I think someone had a fiddle with mine before I got the car.

    I made my own tool from a discarded ring nut I machined down and attached a steel handle with screws. That way I have aluminium pushing against aluminium, and the same cast material, but I only use it with the 'box on the bench.

    If I had to do the job in car I would use a scriber to mark the position of the ring against the casing. I think that is more accurate than a dab of paint. That said, I would avoid doing the job in the car like the plague.
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    I think someone had a fiddle with mine before I got the car.

    I made my own tool from a discarded ring nut I machined down and attached a steel handle with screws. That way I have aluminium pushing against aluminium, and the same cast material, but I only use it with the 'box on the bench.

    If I had to do the job in car I would use a scriber to mark the position of the ring against the casing. I think that is more accurate than a dab of paint. That said, I would avoid doing the job in the car like the plague.
    I made a tool from a large steel washer that I had lying around that just happed to be the right size and a piece of pipe which was 38mm NB. I just marked the washer where the ribs are on the lock nuts and cut the slots into the washer with a hacksaw and touched up with a file. Took awhile but works great.

    Then you guessed it a proper factory toll became available on Ebay so I bought that.
    Regards Col

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    Ha. Neat.

    I can now mill a tool like that from billet aircraft 7075 Aluminium but why? It would cost too much and take too long. I like ingenious, solid, proper tools bodged from bits lying about and who doesn't have stuff lying about?!
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    I've done quite a few with the box in the car. As Sunny et al state the critical part counting the EXACT number of turns and marking the lug which sits between the cutout on the locking tab. You'll note that the hole the retaining bolt goes thru is slotted to ensure accurate positioning.

    It it really is a simple job with a suitable nut removing tool. With the right inducements, deposit etc you may be able to hire one off a fellow AFer.

    The felt ring on the seal is to keep dust and grit away from the inner seal. When gearbox oil seeps onto the, and it will happen, its a toss up whether it keeps crud out or traps it in.

    Always a good idea to dress the gearbox end of the driveshaft with a little fine grit paper and to set the seal in a slightly different spot so it doesnt run in the existing groove. Covered in depth elsewhere on the forum.

    P

    Renault Virage drive shaft seals-img_3412.jpgRenault Virage drive shaft seals-img_3413.jpgRenault Virage drive shaft seals-img_3417.jpgRenault Virage drive shaft seals-img_3416.jpg



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    Sorry about the gap in response, gentlemen -- I was out of town for a bit.

    I shouldn't be surprised by now, but I'm always impressed by your depth of experience and willingness to help. I'd buy each of you a drink (or equivalent) if I could. Maybe one day, who knows?

    I've just now gone out to find the Oval Plate number and transmission type. The car is an R1179 and unfortunately, I can't get to the top of the transmission to see if the aluminium tag is present. Col and Simon, pardon my ignorance, but the exploded view that Ren Tin Tin kindly provided says PR1012 -- so may not be applicable to the R1179. Whether it is or not, the ring nuts and seals look as if they are probably identical with my transmission, or could this be a wrong assumption?

    Renault Virage drive shaft seals-20180119_163129.jpg

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    Hello Clive,

    PR1012 is the number of the parts manual, not the car.
    There are several parts books for the R12.
    The PR1012 is from around 1977 and lists the parts up to that time and covers R12 types, R1170, R1177, and R1179.

    If there is more than one part (i.e. updated or different between versions) the manual will list the type version and the chassis numbers that apply. In the case of the gearbox seals, there were no changes up to the time the manual was compiled and no difference between types.

    Cheers
    RTT
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clive Atkinson View Post
    I've just now gone out to find the Oval Plate number and transmission type. The car is an R1179 and unfortunately, I can't get to the top of the transmission to see if the aluminium tag is present.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    That is a very late production Virage. May 1979? Also the reason for asking the numbers, as there was a very minor change in ring nut design incorporating a large o-ring behind the ring nut (see attached pic), which you will need to note and not lose in the replacement (if it is there).

    In usual Renault wisdom the change occurred from R1179/6627 manual transmission (approximately, so says Renault). Or from automatic transmission 4139-31/ 19832 onwards or all 4139-35 automatic transmissions.

    Also, do all cleaning of the area before you start pulling things apart, not when the driveshaft is pulled from the transmission. As if you start spraying cleaner around the place when things are in pieces it can push grit into the diff bearings. I'm thinking being such a late car as well, you may be able to leave the ring nut in-situ, and prise the old oil seal out - as it is unlikely it will be one of the earlier "three - piece" (steel outer/felt ring/lip seal) type seals (see Exfrogger's post #14 above) - it will likely be the later sole lip seal only type. The earlier ring nuts have lugs that prevent the seal being removed without unscrewing and removing the ring nut.

    Parts catalogues also have their own story, as Renault change parts more often than I change clothes, it helps to have the "latest" edition. Even then the parts evolve beyond end of production - but the parts books are their own story :-)
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Renault Virage drive shaft seals-dsc00680.jpg  
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