R12 starter motor
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Thread: R12 starter motor

  1. #1
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    Default R12 starter motor

    I'm test fitting the starter in the R10 bell housing on my K4M and I'm reluctant to shave any more off the block to make the starter clear.

    I believe all the starters I have are from R10's. Is there a smaller version that will fit.

    Unfortunately the K4M starter has a different throw out distance.

    I have 3 of these, the smaller one is from the K4M, just for comparison.


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    How much extra travel do you need for the K4M starter to engage? I would check if machining down the mating face/lugs would solve the problem. From the pictures, I would say you might have a chance. You need to be careful though to make sure you don't machine too much and have the pinion permanently engaged.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 18th November 2017 at 05:26 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    How much extra travel do you need for the K4M starter to engage? I would check if machining down the mating face/lugs would solve the problem. From the pictures, I would say you might have a chance. You need to be careful though to make sure you don't machine too much and have the pinion permanently engaged.
    I have considered this, I think it would end up 2mm thick. I can still look into this as I can weld a plate to the back on it first.

    There is then the issue the bolt pattern us slightly different so I'd need to work out which two bolts to use. That's not a major problem

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    From memory the R10 starter motor mounts straight to the bell housing, from you post above it sounds like there is a casting off the motor where the starter motor mounts just like the R16/R17 does.

    Maybe put up some pics of the K4M engine where the starter motor mounts up.
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    Col, it mounts to the bell housing just like on an R10. It's a late R10 bell housing.

    The starter interferes with the side of the block, I've ground the block down a bit but I don't want to make it too thin.

    I think the guys in France use R5 starters when doing this conversion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by c.lees View Post
    Col, it mounts to the bell housing just like on an R10. It's a late R10 bell housing.

    The starter interferes with the side of the block, I've ground the block down a bit but I don't want to make it too thin.

    I think the guys in France use R5 starters when doing this conversion.

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    I understand now.

    What are the brand of the starter motors that you have?
    Regards Col

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    Chris I recently had to change my Starter on my R8.
    I sourced a Valeo which I noticed was quite a bit smaller that the standard Ducelier.
    It fitted perfectly on my late R10 bell-housing (3 bolt fixing) with R5 block
    Just a thought if it is the size that is the issue.

    Attachment 101391Attachment 101390

  8. #8
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    All three are Bosch starters.

    I wonder how thick the outside case of the starter is, perhaps I can shave it down if something suitable can't be found.

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    Quote Originally Posted by c.lees View Post
    All three are Bosch starters.

    I wonder how thick the outside case of the starter is, perhaps I can shave it down if something suitable can't be found.

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    I was wondering if the Paris Rhone or Ducelier starter motors are a bit smaller in diameter, I think a Renault 12 starter may fit so there may be another option.
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  10. #10
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    Does anyone have one not in a car they can measure?

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    Quote Originally Posted by c.lees View Post
    Does anyone have one not in a car they can measure?

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    I can measure you an R8/10 Ducellier starter motor. What measurements do you want exactly?

    R12s had an Australian Bosch item available, but I seem to recall it was a bit larger than the Ducellier - Simon knows the details of course!!

    Cheers
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    Thanks John, diameter of the main body and length from the mounting face of the flange to the end. That'll be enough to tell me if it would fit any better.

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    The Australian Bosch is the largest (in length and breadth) of all the R8/10/12 starters. The later Valeo starters are shorter, due to a different brush arrangement - I fitted one to my old 12. I'm guessing just get the latest early (Phase 1) Renault 5 starter you can find, as it is a direct replacement for the R8/10/12 starter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by c.lees View Post
    Thanks John, diameter of the main body and length from the mounting face of the flange to the end. That'll be enough to tell me if it would fit any better.

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    End of the mounting face of the flange to the outer pointed end or the inner dimension where there is a wee bush that sets the limit to the outwards movement of the pinion?

    I see Simon came through as expected! Thanks Simon....

    Cheers
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  15. #15
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    Ok then. Has anyone got one they wish to part with? Or are they still available or easy to come by?

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  16. #16
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    OK, 89 mm OD of body, plus or minus 1 mm.

    Flange face to outer end of starter 46.5 plus or minus 0.5 mm.

    Flange face to the limit that pinion end can travel outwards is 22.5 mm plus or minus 0.5 mm.

    That's my spare R8/10 Ducellier starter.

    Cheers
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  17. #17
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    I did a quick search on one of the part numbers on the starter 90010658 (the pars that bolts to the bell housing) and an Australian made gear reduction starter comes up and says it suitable for an R17TL. Is it possible that the R17 starters are also suitable.

  18. #18
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    Simon, I don't suppose you have a list of suitable part numbers?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post
    The Australian Bosch is the largest (in length and breadth) of all the R8/10/12 starters. The later Valeo starters are shorter, due to a different brush arrangement - I fitted one to my old 12. I'm guessing just get the latest early (Phase 1) Renault 5 starter you can find, as it is a direct replacement for the R8/10/12 starter.
    Didn't the earliest R5s have 850 Ventoux engines? I guess the later Phase 1 cars had Sierra engines.
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    Quote Originally Posted by c.lees View Post
    Does anyone have one not in a car they can measure?

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    I hope this helps

    Attachment 101393
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    Quote Originally Posted by R8 Dream View Post
    I hope this helps

    Attachment 101393
    To match this diagram, the full length of the Ducellier starter from mating flange to the end of the pressed steel cover is about 206 mm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by c.lees View Post
    I did a quick search on one of the part numbers on the starter 90010658 (the pars that bolts to the bell housing) and an Australian made gear reduction starter comes up and says it suitable for an R17TL. Is it possible that the R17 starters are also suitable.
    An R17tl is an 807 type engine that has quite a different style of mounting flange to the Sierra type R8,10,12.
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  23. #23
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    So the Valeo D9E78 won't fit either. The diameter of the Bosch is around 92mm and is too large. The guy in France I got all my original info on the K4M installation used a R5A starter spaced out 5mm but he is using a different flywheel with the ring gear closer to the block. Mine will have the trigger wheel on the block side of the flywheel which is the opposite way around to normal.

    Given there is a complete lack of dimensions for the bit that concerns me on any starter manufacturers data sheet it may be worth me seeing if one of the Bosch starters can be rebuilt with a smaller motor. I take one apart to see how the motor is actually connected, may be able to strip the K4M one and make it fir as the bolts holding the rear plate on seem to be spaced the same.
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  24. #24
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    I've taken a look at making a franken-starter but alas, the helical gear where the throw out gear engages is a different diameter. I was hoping to just graft the shafts together by drilling/turning and thread cutting as it only ever spins one direction.

    I've looked in one of my R10 manuals and it lists Paris-Rhone D8E41, D8E60, Bosch 6187, Ducellier 6128 and 6172. Are these all the same, good question. The outside casing of the Bosch starter is quite thick, I could take a mm off the outside but it would probably still be to thick.

    By using the afore mentioned part numbers I've found this one Starter AES new 12V - 0.9kW Renault 0.8/1.1/1.3/1.4 - AES Auto Electric Service B.V. Probably going to be super expensive. I've asked them for dimensions, you never know your luck.

  25. #25
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    And they got back to me to tell me they can't help as they are a wholesaler.


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