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Thread: New Alpine - will we really see one on the road?

  1. #51
    Fellow Frogger! SilverGTi_6's Avatar
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    Default New Alpine - will we really see one on the road?

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    And if there are any "cons" with current iterations of the product IMO they are well exceed by "pros"

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    Very few drivers are able to match or exceed the DSG gear change speed, compared to a driving a manual and match the smoothness of gear changes.

    It is a reality: DSGs are here to stay (until a better technology is developed).

    Personally, after gaining familiarity , I find DSGs equal to or better than conventional autos or even manuals.
    Probably a bit off topic to this discussion, but I couldn't care less how fast the dual clutch can shift, or how economical it may be, for me it's about the enjoyment and involvement given by manually changing gears - Unfortunately something that will likely disappear in the coming years.

    Really loved the idea of this Alpine as it was being developed but completely lost interest when released as an auto only. Yes, I've driven DSG equipped cars before (and have zero interest in owning one), but in my (maybe old fashioned) mind, a car developed as a driver focused sports car should still offer a manual option at least. Seems to be a cracker of a car otherwise though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilverGTi_6 View Post
    Probably a bit off topic to this discussion, but I couldn't care less how fast the dual clutch can shift, or how economical it may be, for me it's about the enjoyment and involvement given by manually changing gears - Unfortunately something that will likely disappear in the coming years.

    Really loved the idea of this Alpine as it was being developed but completely lost interest when released as an auto only. Yes, I've driven DSG equipped cars before (and have zero interest in owning one), but in my (maybe old fashioned) mind, a car developed as a driver focused sports car should still offer a manual option at least. Seems to be a cracker of a car otherwise though.
    You might like to ask yourself whether any car at the pinnacle of motorsport (and I don't mean bullshit V8 supercars) still has a manual gearbox?
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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    Exactly, because Motorsport is about being the fastest. I'm talking about driver enjoyment on the road, where a couple of tenths of a second difference in gear change doesn't mean anything.
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    I get the point and regret that manuals are going the way of the dodo bird. Same as those enthusiasts who enjoy black powder shooting. Driving a manual properly, double clutching etc is, for me, more fun than pulling paddles or just pointing and pressing the go and whoa pedals. And I feel the same about all the electronic stability aids too.
    Last edited by dvr; 6th August 2018 at 10:12 AM.
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    You guys scare me! I cut my teeth early on on Turner five speed non synchro gearboxes with three speed non synchro joeys. Absolute pain in the arse compared with Roadranger 9, 10, 13, and 15 speed twin countershaft dual range non synchro gearboxes. I loved the 18 speed Roadranger before they made a full automatic version of it, but at the end of the day, I've never driven a box as exceptionally good as the 7 speed EDC box in my wife's 2017 Megane sedan. And I've driven a few, not just thought about it!
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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    Quote Originally Posted by SilverGTi_6 View Post
    Probably a bit off topic to this discussion, but I couldn't care less how fast the dual clutch can shift, or how economical it may be, for me it's about the enjoyment and involvement given by manually changing gears - Unfortunately something that will likely disappear in the coming years.

    Really loved the idea of this Alpine as it was being developed but completely lost interest when released as an auto only. Yes, I've driven DSG equipped cars before (and have zero interest in owning one), but in my (maybe old fashioned) mind, a car developed as a driver focused sports car should still offer a manual option at least. Seems to be a cracker of a car otherwise though.
    Maybe you need to get a Focus RS.....
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    dvr
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    Yes Kim, you're right there. I'd also prefer the Megane to any of the manuals you drove. But those manuals were driving for work rather than for pleasure. I wouldn't get excited about driving any of them for an early morning tonic on a winding road.
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    Driving a manual properly, double clutching etc is, for me, more fun than pulling paddles or just pointing and pressing the go and whoa pedals
    If you apply your learned skill set to driving a DSG smoothly and fast. Then you may find a DSG similarly enjoyable - albeit a with lot less physical input required.

    As to paddles? I seldom use the them. The DSG will override my choice if it's likely to cause issues to trans or gearbox. And I very , very seldom find the DSG in the "wrong" gear.

    Making sure the DSG is the "right" gear is part of the art of driving them and all about accelerator control.

    I see a dsg an advance in technology rather than a hindrance to my previous driving technique.
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    Ford have dropped DSG type auto transmissions for torque converter type. As far as I know DSG means dual mass flywheel also which I can live without.
    If it’s getting long in the tooth I prefer a torque converter.


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    New Renault Meganes and the Alpine A110 use Getrag 7 speed boxes. Lighter, cleaner and smarter!
    http://www.getrag.com/media/media/datenblaetter/20170907_Storyboard_7DCT300_en_web.pdf
    http://www.getrag.com/media/videos/p...AG_7DCT300.mp4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nagaman View Post
    Ford have dropped DSG type auto transmissions for torque converter type. As far as I know DSG means dual mass flywheel also which I can live without.
    If it’s getting long in the tooth I prefer a torque converter.


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    Almost right, DSG in actual fact a direct shift gear box, Or EDC (efficient dual clutch)in Renault parlance.

    Dual mass flywheels are, unsurprisingly usually abbreviated to DMF.

    However nearly all DSGs do have a DMF.

    Ford has enormous problems with their DSG and I suspect, with a class action on the horizon, dug into their parts bin and decided a outdated trans was a cheaper option than sorting out their DSG.
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    For obvious reasons I referred to DMF in long form because many are a bit over endless acronyms.........and “means” as in “associated with”.
    “Dual clutch” is a generic expression applicable to mainly VAG and Daimler Benz plus some exotic road cars.
    The new 8-10speed lockup torque converter type transmissions achieve the same economy and are similarly seamless.
    When it’s out of warranty I’ll always take the torque converter type.


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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Apologies Nagaman, you really "threw" me with that errant "also"

    "Also" is a focusing adjunct and is normally placed before the phrase or sentence which is being modified.

    Seeing "also" after the phrase it was intended to modify completely caught me off guard.

    I now understand your meaning . I would expect to see the sentence written like this:

    As far as I know DSG also means a dual mass flywheel: which I can live without.

    This is case and point where word order is critical to clear understanding.

    I'll quote KL's favorite example of importance of punctuation and capital letters.

    correct: I helped Uncle Jack, off his horse.

    incorrect: I helped uncle jack off his horse.

    Either way, you challenged me to recall my English grammar rules. Thanks for that.

    Last edited by robmac; 6th August 2018 at 08:53 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nagaman View Post
    For obvious reasons I referred to DMF in long form because many are a bit over endless acronyms.........and “means” as in “associated with”.
    “Dual clutch” is a generic expression applicable to mainly VAG and Daimler Benz plus some exotic road cars.
    The new 8-10speed lockup torque converter type transmissions achieve the same economy and are similarly seamless.
    When it’s out of warranty I’ll always take the torque converter type.


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    They sound great, are designed for north south installation (Toyota at least) and no-one gives measurements or weights. Every time you use the slush in a slush box your drive is slipping just as much if not more than a dry or wet clutch DSG/EDC transmission and they are proud to tell us that a gear change is completed in 0.4 of a second as opposed to 150 milliseconds. Sounds like a recipe for mediocrity.............https://newsroom.toyota.co.jp/en/pow.../transmission/
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    My take on these DSG/EDC boxes or what ever the manufacturer wants to call them.

    I think its great to have plenty of gears to choose from (the more the better) as there will be a gear that is correct for the situation. It will also keep the engine operating at its most efficient RPM therefore saving fuel.

    As for how the gearbox gets from one gear to the next does not really matter in the scheme of things out on the road, you are not going to save a lot of time because your gearbox can get from one gear to the next in 150 ms. On a race track it is different, everyone is going as fast as they can. This is not the case on the road, you are held back by restrictive speed limits; other road users; congestion in the cities; etc

    While i'm here my preferred method of changing gears is the old fashioned manual, although I have an auto in the driveway because to have the engine and spec level in the car I must have the auto.
    Regards Col

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    I agree mostly with what Col says, we need to remind ourselves that none of the new A110 models are designed for the track. They are designed for the "driving experience" and Alpine suggests that most of the customers for their new car will prefer EDC. I can add that the EDC systems are extremely power efficient, and give fuel economy benefits.
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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    [QUOTE=robmac;1580406]I

    As to paddles? I seldom use the them. The DSG will override my choice if it's likely to cause issues to trans or gearbox. And I very , very seldom find the DSG in the "wrong" gear.


    This is not so for the Getrag in the Evo X when driven in manual mode. It selects whatever gear you choose at any revs instantly. Go down 2 gears even though the motor is near redline the rev limiter cuts in... ask me how I know. It is no slushbox.
    I presume the dual clutch Getrag in the Alpine will do the same.

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Both Evo X and Future Renault Alpine are true sports cars. And quite rightly, should be designed for certain amount of "driver abuse".

    The vehicle I have is performance road car. With a stock VW CTHE engine and seven speed dry clutch DSG.

    I would assume Skoda wish to protect themselves from warranty (5 year unlimited Kms) claims caused by road racers driving the vehicle like a racing car.

    I'd note that Renault already offer a shorter warranty on the Sports vehicles than their passenger vehicles.

    Regardless, my vehicle has sufficient performance for my purposes.
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    Its a handful! Looks like an LSD and firmer damping is required for really pushing it on a track.

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    Nope, I'd want to be doing my own rev blips and rowing a gear lever.

    It's like those braggart big game "hunters" who pay a fee to sit in a camouflaged shelter by a waterhole, kill whatever beast strolls down for a drink and proclaim themselves as a modern day Buffalo Bill.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dvr View Post
    Nope, I'd want to be doing my own rev blips and rowing a gear lever.

    It's like those braggart big game "hunters" who pay a fee to sit in a camouflaged shelter by a waterhole, kill whatever beast strolls down for a drink and proclaim themselves as a modern day Buffalo Bill.
    I suspect you are likely become extinct, along with the dodo bird, who was another who couldn't adapt to a modern environment.

    I'd like to think I'm driving a car not hunting big game : there is quite a difference.
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    And I prefer electric drive with no gears at all...

    Gears are so last century
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    It's amazing how so many people like the way it drives:
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haakon View Post
    And I prefer electric drive with no gears at all...

    Gears are so last century
    Wrong! Louis Renault's first car with a gearbox (World's first three speed and reverse) was made TWO centuries ago in the nineteenth century, 1898 to be precise..
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    It's amazing how so many people like the way it drives:
    The people who don't like the new Alpine, in this thread, are the people who haven't driven one. Or those who are happy to let their biased view of DSG transmissions color their judgement.

    I'd drive one in a flash.
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