3x150mm Wheels, again (no doubt)
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Thread: 3x150mm Wheels, again (no doubt)

  1. #1
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    Default 3x150mm Wheels, again (no doubt)

    I'm at the point of looking for wheels. I need them to know how far to flare the guards. I think it'll need flared guards, mainly because it looks cool and I like doing metalwork that just isn't really necessary, not. It does means I'll need to buy more tooling, probably an english wheel and a shrinker/stretcher, you can't have too many tools.

    I'd like wheels that are easy to balance, 14" or 15", with wise I was thinking 6.5" on the rear 5.5" on the front but that could be too big of a difference. More research will be required to verify I can get tyres in the desired dimensions.

    My wheel options are,

    Option 1, spends lots of money on really nice wheels like these which I have verified they can do 3x150mm in, should cost around $2500 for 14" after import etc, 15" will be a little more. I did ask if the price changed much if I went to 8 wheels, doesn't change that much as they are CNC'd from billet so it takes the same period of time.
    Billet 60 Bespoke Motorsport Alloy Wheel | Image Wheels

    Option 2, Mexican Gotti knock offs, Ray is getting me a price.

    Option 3, Steel wheels. Track down a set of R16TS 14" steel wheels and get the centres put on some 15" drop centre rims or 14" rims. Does anyone have any 14" steel Renault wheels they want to part with?

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    I'm open to other options. Mad'n only seems to make 13" wheels for Renaults.

    I contacted Arrow wheels in NZ, it's a good thing I was sitting down when I got the reply, it almost made real Gottis sound good value. $1200 engineering fee and then $800 per wheel.

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    Fellow Frogger! rubyalpine's Avatar
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    I too have tried Arrrow wheels in N.Z.
    Their prices are so high, I don't think they really want to sell Renault wheels!
    I had my steel rims custom made a few years back for about NZ$500. (14 inch).

    Henry
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    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
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    My thoughts are go 14" if possible. I think 6 inch all round or 6 rear, and 5.5 front would be OK. I think 15" could be too big and wide and would require quite a low profile tyre.

    I ran 13x6; 14x6 and 15x4.5 on my R10 without flaring the guards other than pulling them out by hand/crowbar - yes, it was dodgy!

    I still have all of those wheels and tyres available if you want to do some trial fitting, but offset is an important consideration for overall clearance.

    With the 14x6's (steel wheels with R16 centres done by Morton & May in Warwick Farm), they rubbed depending on the profile of the tyre. I had two sets of tyres and had to change the tyres over in order to stop the rubbing - so consideration of overall rolling diameter is just as important to consider as width and size; and offset as mentioned.

    And, as I'm sure 4cvg will add, tyre availability and range will play a part in your decision on wheels as well.

    KB
    Last edited by renault8&10; 26th October 2017 at 09:21 PM.
    KB


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    1000+ Posts J-man's Avatar
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    I would have liked to explore the possibilities of using the rims from a 08 Fiesta (15x6) with R10 centres welded in and using the standard size Fiesta tyres which are 195/50R15 which should have the right overall diameter for the Renault. You can then measure and set the ideal offset. I think they would look great with good traction, however relatively heavy wheels on a light Renault isn't ideal either. Nice light alloys like Brettr has for his mad R8 would be the go if the budget stretched that far
    cheers,

    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by J-man View Post
    I would have liked to explore the possibilities of using the rims from a 08 Fiesta (15x6) with R10 centres welded in and using the standard size Fiesta tyres which are 195/50R15 which should have the right overall diameter for the Renault. You can then measure and set the ideal offset. I think they would look great with good traction, however relatively heavy wheels on a light Renault isn't ideal either. Nice light alloys like Brettr has for his mad R8 would be the go if the budget stretched that far

    The issue with the R10 centres is the weird nuts and the lack of a hole in the middle. The R16TS centres would be better and also look a bit better.

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    1000+ Posts J-man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by c.lees View Post
    The issue with the R10 centres is the weird nuts and the lack of a hole in the middle. The R16TS centres would be better and also look a bit better.
    Not sure how you'd go with them being 14" though. Meaning a 14" to 15" conversion, you may need a spacer ring welded in. I've seen it done converting early Falcon 13" rims to 14" rims, so it is possible but legal???
    cheers,

    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by J-man View Post
    Not sure how you'd go with them being 14" though. Meaning a 14" to 15" conversion, you may need a spacer ring welded in. I've seen it done converting early Falcon 13" rims to 14" rims, so it is possible but legal???
    You can get rims with dropped profiles for smaller centres

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    Quote Originally Posted by c.lees View Post
    I'm at the point of looking for wheels. I need them to know how far to flare the guards. I think it'll need flared guards, mainly because it looks cool and I like doing metalwork that just isn't really necessary, not. It does means I'll need to buy more tooling, probably an english wheel and a shrinker/stretcher, you can't have too many tools.

    I'd like wheels that are easy to balance, 14" or 15", with wise I was thinking 6.5" on the rear 5.5" on the front but that could be too big of a difference. More research will be required to verify I can get tyres in the desired dimensions.

    My wheel options are,

    Option 1, spends lots of money on really nice wheels like these which I have verified they can do 3x150mm in, should cost around $2500 for 14" after import etc, 15" will be a little more. I did ask if the price changed much if I went to 8 wheels, doesn't change that much as they are CNC'd from billet so it takes the same period of time.
    Billet 60 Bespoke Motorsport Alloy Wheel | Image Wheels

    Option 2, Mexican Gotti knock offs, Ray is getting me a price.

    Option 3, Steel wheels. Track down a set of R16TS 14" steel wheels and get the centres put on some 15" drop centre rims or 14" rims. Does anyone have any 14" steel Renault wheels they want to part with?

    I'm open to other options. Mad'n only seems to make 13" wheels for Renaults.

    I contacted Arrow wheels in NZ, it's a good thing I was sitting down when I got the reply, it almost made real Gottis sound good value. $1200 engineering fee and then $800 per wheel.

    PM sent

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    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    4 stud conversion, buy some Cit C5 steelies?

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowie View Post
    4 stud conversion, buy some Cit C5 steelies?
    4 stud conversion would involve making new hub flanges as it's illegal to re-drill them for a different pattern and also illegal to use wheel spacers on NSW on street cars.

    I did consider getting hub flanges made a long time ago, probably wouldn't have been super expensive if I'd had them machined in China.

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    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    I eventually went 15 x 6 all round with the same offset. Going 14s unless narrow requires the fronts to be offset considerably outward compared to the rear to clear the steering arm/tierod, and also around 8mm removed from the 3 ribs of the front calipers, depending on a lot of things. Usually with made up steel rims, the rims are reversed to achieve the offset. I did use 185/55/15s at first on my 4cv, now using Yoko AD08 in 195/50/15, both of which are considerably smaller in diameter than the original, but neither look too wrong in my eyes. I have a 3.77 diff in mine, and admit a taller top gear would still not be a problem in my car.

    The wider tyres, or perhaps the combination of certain types of wide tyres on our cars tends to make them "tramtrack" at high speed. With the heavy outward offset and a wide tyre of similar diameter to original, the tyre is likely to rub the rear inner guard on the front in tight turns.

    On the rear be careful to allow for the negative camber induced in a lowered car, so that it doesn't have the rim/tyre rubbing on the top edge of the spring tower on compression of the suspension. It is all a delicate compromise. Plenty of opinions and experience on this forum.

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    I have 13" from Image Wheels and found them great to deal with. Had I been aware of the limited availability of 13" rubber I would have gone for 14 or 15",but the 13" just look so cool!

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    1000+ Posts J-man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan moore View Post
    With the heavy outward offset and a wide tyre of similar diameter to original, the tyre is likely to rub the rear inner guard on the front in tight turns.
    Alan, I think that tyre/wheel combo looks fantastic on your 4CV. Equally good on the Dauph
    I wondered if the steering lock would require reducing to prevent the tyres rubbing on the inner front guards? Not sure how you'd do it, and it would be a shame to lose some of that tight turning circle.

    3x150mm Wheels, again (no doubt)-rhf-superlites.jpg
    cheers,

    John

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    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    On the 4cv I shortened the ends of the shafts of the R10 rack I have fitted by about 8mm each end.

    When being checked by the compliance engineer I could not afford to have a tyre touching in any part of the operation. I initially had cut too much from the ends of the rack causing a very large turning circle, closer to that of a Falcon.
    J-man likes this.

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    I've been given spend approval to get wheels from Image, how lucky am I. I think going with 15's is the go, better chance they will clear steering parts without stupid offsets. Possible better tyre availability on 15's as well over 14's.

    I now just need to decide on the widths and work out the offsets.

    In terms of tyres I'm thinking 185/55R15 and 205/50R15 for front and rear. Both will fit on 6" rims but is this a good combination, maybe 4cvg can weigh in? I'm not sure there is any point going wider on the back other then it looks cool. Flaring the guards shouldn't be an issue but only really want to flare the rears as I only have one set of fronts.
    Last edited by c.lees; 29th October 2017 at 07:55 PM.

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    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    Given the camber change on the swing axle rear end, and that we generally set an amount of negative to start with on these cars, I think that wide tyres with low profile sidewalls do not conform to the road to actually give any benefit beyond a certain point.

    On my GTA Turbo the original rear wheels are 15 x 8.5, which I changed to 17 x 10 and correspondingly lower 40 profile tyres. Without changing my wheel alignment the inside of the tyres were worn out quickly, which was fixed by standing up the rear tyres somewhat from 2.5 neg to 1 neg.

    It is not a track car, but I didn't notice any loss of handling, but this is an upper and lower arm rear end, not swing axle, so not necessarily a direct comparison.

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    I'm having trouble connecting to AF at the moment so I've missed this until now. Some observations:

    First: At one stage I had an extended conversation with Image Wheels (thinking of putting them on the Djet). Two things impressed me. One was that one could write one's own offset specifications & the other was how responsive & communicative they are.

    Second: I agree with Alan that one should be wary of over-tyring the beastie. In particular, wide & low profile types at the rear will work badly with swing angle rear suspension. I would be inclined to favour sweetness of handling in your choice. There is definitely a merit in different sizes front/rear & my rule of thumb is that about 20 mm is a good choice. This allows more scope for higher front pressures (& thus crisper turn-in response) without unsettling the front-rear balance.

    My own tyre inclination is to go for 175/65 fronts & 195/55 rears. These have the same circumference & also the same circumference as a 145/80 so one can use an oldish XZX or buy a cheap new crappy Nankang which will not stress the diff. when matched to a 195/55 & which will fit in the spare wheel slot.

    Third: As for tyre choice, for a non-competition vehicle, I favour two qualities: wet braking at the front & good wet transition behaviour at the rear. One also wants to avoid possible slip angle mismatches from different tyre types & use the same type front & rear. Finally, one wants a stable tread at the edges & a structure which is responsive to tyre pressure tuning of handling balance.

    One tyre that satisfies all of these criteria is Continental's PremiumContact2 (about the only one in 175/65 & 195/55).

    Fourth: As for wheels, I would try to maintain original offset at the front or increase -ve offset by no more than half an inch (rationale is steering crabbiness avoidance). At the rear, as you are going to flare guards, you could increase -ve offset by whatever will just allow you to clear stuff on the inner side.

    As for wheel width, I would choose 5" at the front & 6" at the rear. I recommend against going to the upper end of the permissible wheel width range at the rear as this pre-tensions the sidewalls more & restricts the tyre's capacity to act as a radial (flat tread migrating laterally under load as the sidewall folds under) & will cause the tyre to jack onto its outside edge. This is of greater salience at the rear given the camber variations. (On which topic, I very much recommend a transverse leaf camber compensator to postpone & smooth transitions.)

    I think that this would be very sweet & handling balance would be fine-tuneable by tyre pressure experimentation.

    meta-edited: My brain had a moment of confusion &, after originally & correctly saying 'negative offset' for a wheel sticking out further I erroneously changed it to 'positive offset' in an edit. Zero offset is when the wheel centreline is at the plane of the attachment to the hub, +ve offset is when the wheel centreline is in further than that attachment point & -ve offset is when it is out further than that attachment point. Sorry about that.
    Last edited by 4cvg; 5th November 2017 at 01:08 AM.

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    Tadpole nauli's Avatar
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    As a guide, ideal rim width to tyre size ranges are as follows:

    205 tyre - 5.5" to 7.0" wide rim
    195 tyre - 5.5 to 7.0
    185 tyre - 5.5 to 6.5
    175 tyre - 5.0 to 6.0

  19. #19
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    Rather than keep editing my original post, it seems clearer to add another brief one.
    On tyre sizes & types:

    Note that 185/60 is also the same circumference as the other sizes mentioned. I have found this size (in 14") to work well with swing axles (on my R8 & 4CVG, each with >4 static -ve camber).
    The Conti PC2 is also available in this size.

    Another, slightly cheaper, tyre is Dunlop's new FM800. I only have them fitted at the rear on the 4CVG & thus can make no comment on front wet braking but I can note that they are a very grippy compound in the wet & have very smooth & controllable transient behaviour at the limit. I know of no test of them.
    The FM800 is available in 175/65, 185/60 & 195/55.

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    Fellow Frogger! R8 Dream's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4cvg View Post
    Rather than keep editing my original post, it seems clearer to add another brief one.
    On tyre sizes & types:

    Note that 185/60 is also the same circumference as the other sizes mentioned. I have found this size (in 14") to work well with swing axles (on my R8 & 4CVG, each with >4 static -ve camber).
    The Conti PC2 is also available in this size.

    Another, slightly cheaper, tyre is Dunlop's new FM800. I only have them fitted at the rear on the 4CVG & thus can make no comment on front wet braking but I can note that they are a very grippy compound in the wet & have very smooth & controllable transient behaviour at the limit. I know of no test of them.
    The FM800 is available in 175/65, 185/60 & 195/55.
    I have used the Dunlop Dirrezza Z2 Star Spec 185/60x14 on 14" x 5" rims and can attest they are very grippy and low noise on my R8.

    3x150mm Wheels, again (no doubt)-photo1084.jpg3x150mm Wheels, again (no doubt)-photo1085.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by R8 Dream View Post
    I have used the Dunlop Dirrezza Z2 Star Spec 185/60x14 on 14" x 5" rims and can attest they are very grippy and low noise on my R8.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Yes, I considered them at one point & yes, they operate at low slip angles & use a nicely grippy compound. My own worry was unbalancing the handling balance beyond tyre pressure adjustment because of front tyres operating at rather higher slip angles.

    They are still on my shortlist but first I am going to try Pirelli's new P6 to see if it is irremediably sloppier than my front Conti PC2s.

    cheers! Peter

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    See remediation (reversion to the original after a wrong edit) of a stuff-up of mine in the longish post above.

    :-(

    Peter

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