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Thread: R17 twin carb intake manifolds?

  1. #26
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shoji View Post
    Ray's helping me with this. I have a two engines, gearbox and other parts. An existing cam has been mentioned for Plan. We'll see what transpires.
    I look forward to a ride when it's all done!

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    LOL. Cam
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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shoji View Post
    And under the hood of an orange R17.

    Would like to know if the FAJS 40DCOE carbies are a good choice or just don't go there?
    I meant compare'd with the real deal Webers
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  4. #29
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shoji View Post
    The Plan...Cam..Head work and so on, because we can. Not really interested in FI.

    You can what? That is a very risky plan.

    You don't have too many (if any) gear options, so going carby you can find yourself in the wrong gear pretty much across the entire range.

    Cam selection will be the decider ultimately. See Frans's exploits in the respective thread, and keep in mind for a road car his very small problems will be your really big problems unless you're going to be at WOT all the time. Which I doubt, because you don't have the g'box for it.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 24th September 2017 at 08:35 PM.
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  5. #30
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    Tread the proven path and you will be rewarded....
    R17TS and R12 Gordini standard engines - I call them the 125HP version
    share fairly common cams, pistons, con rods, crank and dowelled flywheel, clutch, head combustion chamber shape etc.
    If you have such a starting point, use a pair of 45's and simply look up the jetting specs for a 12G.
    It will all work quite well.
    No Dynos, or constant tuning required.
    Slightly smaller valves as per 17TL will be OK especially if a good set of extractors can be sourced together with a free flowing exhaust.
    It will burble/ induction note nicely and encourage skilled gearchanging.
    Fuel use will be higher, but that is the price you pay...
    Don't like that??
    Go buy a paddle shift modern car..!
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  6. #31
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    That would be a first step in some direction.

    But.

    Our customer here wants to go DCOE40 instead of 45, which will throw the jetting off, plus he doesn't have a 365 'box hence my comments above.

    And with the long ratios of the 395 'box, Webers are going to sound nice standing still at idle, but he's going to struggle to take off below 4500RPM.

    He also needs 12/17G pistons, a 12/17G cam (let's say this will be reground) and a 12/17G head (which means he will need the bigger valves then, plus the twin springs).

    I am not sure he knows all this.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 25th September 2017 at 12:00 AM.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

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  7. #32
    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    That would be a first step in some direction.

    But.

    Our customer here wants to go DCOE40 instead of 45, which will throw the jetting off, plus he doesn't have a 365 'box hence my comments above.

    And with the long ratios of the 395 'box, Webers are going to sound nice standing still at idle, but he's going to struggle to take off below 4500RPM.

    He also needs 12/17G pistons, a 12/17G cam (let's say this will be reground) and a 12/17G head (which means he will need the bigger valves then, plus the twin springs).

    I am not sure he knows all this.
    If both the 40s or 45s run 34mm chokes with around 130 mains, 190 airs, on an F16, F15, or possibly an F9 emulsion tube, 40 or 45 idles with F8 hole, it will run reasonably with mid range cam, and could be played with after this. I haven't looked at what was fitted to the R12G, although I do think they ran 34mm chokes. I know someone that ran the Chinese DCOEs and found them to quite OK.

    Decided I would look up R12G. 45DCOE 68/69 34mm chokes, 4.5 mm aux venturi, 135 main jet, F9 emulsion, 200 air corrector, a rich idle at 55 F8, 45 accel pump jet, 60 accel pump inlet valve, 150 needle valves.

    I found in my R15 with a modded engine with Webers, that it could be driven quite normally in traffic, using 1500-1800rpm to take off. My only concession was that I ran a CD Ignition that prevented plug fouling whilst puddling around on and off the throttle using the accel pumps a lot. For street use and good operation at low revs, it is quite important that the carb throats are well balanced. I don't think the 395 gearbox will cause much concern with its ratios.

    12G/17G had 2mm bigger inlets, nice but not a game changer. A 17 TL head will work OK. The plain 16TS 807 had dual valve springs also, though not as heavy as the R12/17G.

    I haven't read back to see what the original poster was looking for, but I took it as an improvement over standard with the Weber roar, rather than a full blown race car. The 125HP 12G and 17G had the same pistons with a small dome from edge to edge maybe 9mm high in the centre. To use these a small amount needs to be removed from the combustion chamber of a 17TL or 16TS head to accept the dome, but with some straight shaving off the head 10 to 1 comp ratio can be achieved with 15TS 17TL pistons with the small raised section on the piston. This is to save trying to find a 17TS head to build this engine with.
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  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan moore View Post
    I know someone that ran the Chinese DCOEs and found them to quite OK.

    Hi Alan
    Are you saying your friend says the FAJS copies are ok?
    A few of the Aussie carbie resellers are boasting they are good and guarantee them.
    I'm ready to buy
    Cheers. John
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  9. #34
    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    Yes he said the Chinese DCOEs were fine.
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  10. #35
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan moore View Post
    If both the 40s or 45s run 34mm chokes with around 130 mains, 190 airs, on an F16, F15, or possibly an F9 emulsion tube, 40 or 45 idles with F8 hole, it will run reasonably with mid range cam, and could be played with after this. I haven't looked at what was fitted to the R12G, although I do think they ran 34mm chokes. I know someone that ran the Chinese DCOEs and found them to quite OK.

    Decided I would look up R12G. 45DCOE 68/69 34mm chokes, 4.5 mm aux venturi, 135 main jet, F9 emulsion, 200 air corrector, a rich idle at 55 F8, 45 accel pump jet, 60 accel pump inlet valve, 150 needle valves.

    I found in my R15 with a modded engine with Webers, that it could be driven quite normally in traffic, using 1500-1800rpm to take off. My only concession was that I ran a CD Ignition that prevented plug fouling whilst puddling around on and off the throttle using the accel pumps a lot. For street use and good operation at low revs, it is quite important that the carb throats are well balanced. I don't think the 395 gearbox will cause much concern with its ratios.

    12G/17G had 2mm bigger inlets, nice but not a game changer. A 17 TL head will work OK. The plain 16TS 807 had dual valve springs also, though not as heavy as the R12/17G.

    I haven't read back to see what the original poster was looking for, but I took it as an improvement over standard with the Weber roar, rather than a full blown race car. The 125HP 12G and 17G had the same pistons with a small dome from edge to edge maybe 9mm high in the centre. To use these a small amount needs to be removed from the combustion chamber of a 17TL or 16TS head to accept the dome, but with some straight shaving off the head 10 to 1 comp ratio can be achieved with 15TS 17TL pistons with the small raised section on the piston. This is to save trying to find a 17TS head to build this engine with.

    I agree with you, Alan. I think Shoji would be well advised to get some info off you.

    Just one thing to add. The 12G carbies were different front to back in numbers. I don't remember what the difference was. Jetting was also different in one jet, again don't remember which and by how much, should be on the web.

    One comment, though. The TL pistons are flat top, not sure what you refer to when mentioning the raised section. I have both G and TL pistons here.

    Modifying a TL head to accept dome pistons doesn't look that hard (I have both heads here). The difference is only in the side step which is flat on the TL and sloped on the G head. You need some precision in matching the combustion chamber volume, though. Looks like the ideal job for a CNC shop, but it's got to be a good one.

    Last thing, why not go for the spanish made carbies if there are suspicions about the chinese ones? Or get a pair of Dellortos (I actually like these better). Cheaper to get a s/h pair off Alfisti (I picked two sets for next to nothing from a wrecker back some years ago in Adelaide). Went a treat on my BMW.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 5th October 2017 at 03:23 PM.
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  11. #36
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    R15TS and R17TL pistons have a slope on one side. R16 pistons are flat. R17TS/G pistons for the 1605 cc engine have a slope on each side. I have at least four of 15TS/17TL and 17TS/G engines in bits at the moment and they are all the same just as I have stated. The 160 BHP pistons for the R12G are domed and are for a 1596cc engine. It is also possible to get pistons with a slope on each side as per 17TS/G for 1596 cc bores. From memory there is a 1 mm difference in height from the centre of the gudgeon to the top of each piston starting at the R16 ones and working up. The 45DCOE's for the 12G are both different the rear one I think has an extra adjustable air bleed I think it is. Both also have 3 progression holes where as a lot of DCOE's that are around only have two. It is very difficult to get them to run right with only two. I have drilled another hole in the ones I had and it now runs fine. The problem is that the main jets don't come in until about 2800 - 3000 RPM. This is about 95 to 100 KPH. So up until this speed the car is running on fuel from the progression holes. Believe me I have spent many hours trying to get DCOE's with two progression holes work and gave up in favour of drilling another hole to match 12G/Alpine 310 DCOE's. There is a thread about this on here somewhere showing Alan and I drilling the 3rd hole.
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  12. #37
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Would be interesting to see a picture of your TL pistons. I can not guarantee mine are original but they are flat top.

    The 120HP 17/12G pistons are domed as well, but not as much as the 160HP pistons.

    Don't they make Webers with 5 progression holes? Dellortos do, and I think the older ones have only three holes, but never heard of two holes only in Dellortos. Must be tricky driving on partial throttle one of those two hole carbies.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 6th October 2017 at 03:14 PM.
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    I would bet that the 17TL pistons you have are from an R16. At one point Ken from Caravelle only had R16 flat or R12G 1596 cc pistons with the slope on both sides. Therefore it was common to fit R16 pistons to 15TS and 17TL motors at rebuild time. From memory the 1596 cc pistons and liners were more expensive than the R16 ones. Where as 17TS/G were fitted with the 1596 cc rather than the original 1605 cc ones. Of course the gudgeons and rods are not interchangeable between R16/15TS/17TL and R17TS/G.

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    Oh almost forgot. Yes Webers are made with a range of progression holes. As far as I know from 2 up to 5. But I have only seen 2 hole ones at swap meets as they were a general Weber for aftermarket fitting to whatever. R12G and Alpine 310 had 3 holes from memory all 1 mm. I think later Webers had more progression holes but I don't know on what car altough Escorts come to mind with problems with 3 holes so I think those with 4 were then fitted. When I was having problems I found a bit on the web about it but mostly there is little information on what carb had what progression holes and where they were exactly situated on the wall of the tube. I will try and find the thread.

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    New Webers DCOE's coming from Germany. A little cheaper than Aus.
    May see the manifolds this week in the slowpost
    Love the DCOE thread Sunroof
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    Cheers. John
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  17. #42
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunroof View Post
    I would bet that the 17TL pistons you have are from an R16. At one point Ken from Caravelle only had R16 flat or R12G 1596 cc pistons with the slope on both sides. Therefore it was common to fit R16 pistons to 15TS and 17TL motors at rebuild time. From memory the 1596 cc pistons and liners were more expensive than the R16 ones. Where as 17TS/G were fitted with the 1596 cc rather than the original 1605 cc ones. Of course the gudgeons and rods are not interchangeable between R16/15TS/17TL and R17TS/G.

    I have no idea what had been done to the engine before I got the car. Judging from how the car had been neglected apparently for its entire life, I would be surprised anyone took the trouble to rebuild the engine. When I picked it up, it had been sitting for three years under an orange tree. It had rotten oranges in the engine compartment as well, so at some point it may have been left with the bonnet open. To my surprise, it started on the first key and I never did anything to the engine for its entire service life. When I pulled the engine apart to rebuild it for my 17G, I discovered the cleanest 807 block I have seen. No corrosion anywhere, measured and found it had never been decked, and the head still at nominal size. The crankshaft only needed a polish so it is still at nominal size, the camshaft no signs of wear. The car had about 200k on the clock when I pulled it apart.

    To compare with the 17G block which was cracked and a basket case of corrosion, score marks on the camshaft bearings, a crankshaft so bad it couldn't be reused and so on.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 5th October 2017 at 03:22 PM.
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  18. #43
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    They fit Ian. Merci...

    Sent from my Moto G Play using aussiefrogs mobile app
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shoji View Post
    They fit Ian. Merci...

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  20. #45
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Ahhhhhhhh yeah!!!

    You realize at this point I'm living my cross flow dreams via you
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  21. #46
    1000+ Posts geckoeng's Avatar
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    Shoji, WELL DONE, they look good !!!!

    Ray
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  22. #47
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    Not shore if anybody is interested but I have a set of twin manifolds and the pattern to make as many as you would like. this patern was made to fit 12 with 17 motor and worked no modifications to body. we ran it for 2 years without any problems.

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    Dave are they cast or fabricated from steel?

  24. #49
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    they are cast and cast in the right alloy
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    I am interested I'll PM you to discuss it further.

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