R16TS Head gasket fitting.
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    Fellow Frogger! R8philSA's Avatar
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    Default R16TS Head gasket fitting.

    Hi Fellow Froggers.

    Well today was the day I was going to fit up 'BARNIE's' Head gasket but Iv'e had one of those days and it hasn't happened BUT it will tomorrow

    So I thought I might just put it out there in case there is any special tricks I haven't heard of with respect to the R16 fitting as in R8 or R10.

    The instructions warn against using any other gasket goo/creams/pastes and insist a good clean surface both head and block is all that's needed.
    I was thinking of a smear of grease on the rubber surround seal that fits around the camshaft area, what's your thoughts.

    I'll stay tuned for any input.

    Thanks guys
    Phil

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    R16TS Head gasket fitting.-dscn2137.jpg

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    COL
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    I have always put these on dry, both head gasket and the rubber seal.

    The way you have the head gasket look good to me, all sitting nice and square. The rubber gasket ends look good with no overlap of the head gasket.

    Do you have something fabricated to hold the head gasket in place and also the spigot that goes in the hole above the starter motor mount, which locates the head while you get the head bolts in and tightened so that the head does not move and cause sealing problems?
    Regards Col

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    Fellow Frogger! R8philSA's Avatar
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    I have made up two sleeves from thin brass tube which sit in the extreme corners of the block. Once the head gasket goes over them the gasket can't move in any direction.

    I hadn't given much thought to ' the spigot that goes in the hole above the starter motor mount, which locates the head while you get the head bolts in and tightened so that the head does not move and cause sealing problems?
    I'll make something up tomorrow that will keep the head aligned with the bolt holes. I honestly thought the bolts would do the locating by themselves.

    I added another photo. You should be able to see the brass sleeves.

    Thanks for the heads up Col
    Cheers
    Phil
    R16TS Head gasket fitting.-dscn2136.jpg




    Quote Originally Posted by COL View Post
    I have always put these on dry, both head gasket and the rubber seal.

    The way you have the head gasket look good to me, all sitting nice and square. The rubber gasket ends look good with no overlap of the head gasket.

    Do you have something fabricated to hold the head gasket in place and also the spigot that goes in the hole above the starter motor mount, which locates the head while you get the head bolts in and tightened so that the head does not move and cause sealing problems?

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    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    When you put the oil in through the tappet cover after the engine is assembled it will fill the cam area with oil without having put it in beforehand, and risk having a mess. I have used 2 old head bolts with the heads cut off as a guide when putting the head on. Easier to put the head on straight when the engine is out.
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    Fellow Frogger! R8philSA's Avatar
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    Hi there Alan. Good to hear from you.
    Now that seems a good idea, thank you.
    Simple solution. I reckon it will go on very straight including the big sleeve in the block acting as a guide as well..
    Thanks again
    Phil



    Quote Originally Posted by alan moore View Post
    When you put the oil in through the tappet cover after the engine is assembled it will fill the cam area with oil without having put it in beforehand, and risk having a mess. I have used 2 old head bolts with the heads cut off as a guide when putting the head on. Easier to put the head on straight when the engine is out.

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    COL
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    The first time I did one of these engines many years ago I never used anything to align the head gasket or head and every thing sealed up ok.

    The second time I did this I had water getting into the oil so must of got something wrong, so now I use what it recommends in the factory manuals to take the guess work out.

    As Alan says it is certainly easier when the engine is out of the car to do this procedure.
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    Regards Col

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    That's the beauty of the R8 with the removable back panel. After the engine is fully built I just slip a trolley jack under it and wheel it up to the bell housing. How easy is this especially working on the engine from every angle.
    I can see you would need all the alignment you can get with the block still in the car.
    'BARNIE' has a 1" square steel tube welded at the back of the side rails for strength to stop the rear end from twisting on acceleration and to give a bit more stability. Those rails are pretty flimsy.
    You can see the old tube in the attached photo (rope tied to it)
    Thanks Col and Alan.
    Cheers Phil

    R16TS Head gasket fitting.-dscn1369.jpg

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    One problem is that the rubber seal might move whilst you're lowering the head in place. If it doesn't it will seal very well without any extra stuff. I guess the worst case is when it moves and overlaps the head gasket itself.

    Your brass tube idea follows my suggestion in another thread. You can leave the tubes a lot higher than that, and they will guide the head in place (the head bolt holes in the head are the same diameter as those in the block). The head bolts fit inside the tubes with ease as you probably know already, so you will have no problems to leave them in. Just remember they are there when you take the head off next time and don't try to swing the head around as per manual, cos' it ain't gonna happen. This might have the downside that you might disturb the bottom liner seal any time you take the head off. A bit of RTV silicone on the liner seat could help avoid that.
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    Fellow Frogger! R8philSA's Avatar
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    Thanks for that Schlitzaugen.

    I did cheat a bit and used a very small amount of RTV on the liner seats, I did it with my other R8 as well.

    I'll be especially careful about the rubber seal ends and the head gasket.

    I found the bolt holes in the head were just slightly smaller than the holes in the block which means when the head goes down into position it pushes the brass sleeves into the bolt holes in the block. I'll be using some headless guide bolts just in case anyway.

    Thanks again for your comments.
    Phil
    PS: Are you a night owl like me or are we in different time zones??



    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    One problem is that the rubber seal might move whilst you're lowering the head in place. If it doesn't it will seal very well without any extra stuff. I guess the worst case is when it moves and overlaps the head gasket itself.

    Your brass tube idea follows my suggestion in another thread. You can leave the tubes a lot higher than that, and they will guide the head in place (the head bolt holes in the head are the same diameter as those in the block). The head bolts fit inside the tubes with ease as you probably know already, so you will have no problems to leave them in. Just remember they are there when you take the head off next time and don't try to swing the head around as per manual, cos' it ain't gonna happen. This might have the downside that you might disturb the bottom liner seal any time you take the head off. A bit of RTV silicone on the liner seat could help avoid that.

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Different time zones.

    Even better if the brass tube is pushed down, that means you'll be able to take the head off normally.
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    pretty sure the manual describes using a dowel/ alignment pin for locating the head on the front left side? I replaced a TL head gasket using one, it stops the head pivoting around the brass tube when tightening.
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    Fellow Frogger! R8philSA's Avatar
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    Finally got the head on and tensioned down.

    Can anybody tell me has the alloy block got steel thread inserts in it for the 10 head bolts. Just couldn't bring myself to pull the tension up to (Min 50ftlb) Something about the feel of the bolts going down around 46ftlb, terrible thought they might strip the threads!!
    Anybody else have that feeling??
    Phil

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    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R8philSA View Post
    Finally got the head on and tensioned down.

    Can anybody tell me has the alloy block got steel thread inserts in it for the 10 head bolts. Just couldn't bring myself to pull the tension up to (Min 50ftlb) Something about the feel of the bolts going down around 46ftlb, terrible thought they might strip the threads!!
    Anybody else have that feeling??
    Phil
    Hi Phil,

    It does have steel inserts into the alloy and they are long because the main bearing caps get screwed into the same inserts from the bottom. So you have the main bearing bolts pulling downwards and the head bolts upwards.

    Frans.
    Old enough to know better
    Young enough to do it anyway.

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Nah, they don't.

    In fact if you look on the side, you'll see the main cap bolts poking out on the exhaust side. There's no inserts anywhere, bearing caps or head bolts, but the upshot is they're not actually needed.

    50ftlb is nothing. The 205GTI head bolts are torqued at 200Nm with no inserts and the block (alloy, and pretty similar casting to the 807 engine) doesn't have any problem if you're doing it right.

    Just clean those threads like your life depended on it, grease threads and under head bolt head and washers so it spins freely (so to speak) with plenty of Moly grease and you'll be fine.

    In fact I was always amazed how little torque it is needed to clamp these Renault engines. BMW, Toyota, Honda, and especially Peugeot (these guys take the cake) use much higher torque from what I have seen. By comparison, the Renault head bolts feel almost like you just need to do them finger tight.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 19th September 2017 at 01:25 PM.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

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    Fellow Frogger! driven's Avatar
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    Ensure liner seals give correct protrusion before fitting gasket.
    Most important

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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    Nah, they don't..... In fact if you look on the side, you'll see the main cap bolts poking out on the exhaust side. There's no inserts anywhere, bearing caps or head bolts, but the upshot is they're not actually needed. 50ftlb is nothing.
    Well, there are two completely opposed views! I recall the old 750 head bolts being 45 lbs-ft. I'm surprised, in my untrained way, that the 16TS is much the same. Wouldn't the 16TS engine generate rather more combustion pressure? Maybe it reflects much more advanced head gaskets?

    Anyway, more to follow on this subject I imagine!
    JohnW

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    Oh yes. made very sure of this.
    Phil


    Quote Originally Posted by driven View Post
    Ensure liner seals give correct protrusion before fitting gasket.
    Most important

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    Looks like there is a difference of opinions here. I did note the ' main cap bolts poking out on the exhaust side' and I must admit I couldn't see any inserts.
    It's ok, I just felt that aluminum oxide corrosion may have degraded the threads in the block and in fact weakened the purchase on the bolt threads.
    I had bolt threads cleaner than a diamond and lightly smeared some GP grease on them before installation, moly coat under the bolt heads and washers as well.
    This engine won't be fired up for some time now so I'll find out in the future if they will hold or not.
    Problem with all these old engines we restore, there like me!! wearing out gradually.
    Cheers guys
    Phil
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  19. #19
    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    FWIW, the best solution for dissimilar metals in threads and housings is an inert product called "Tefgel". It totally prevents electrolysis/corrosion and is also used to stop galling when assembling threaded products.
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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Tefgel eh? Thanks. I'll note that.
    JohnW

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    Well, there are two completely opposed views! I recall the old 750 head bolts being 45 lbs-ft. I'm surprised, in my untrained way, that the 16TS is much the same. Wouldn't the 16TS engine generate rather more combustion pressure? Maybe it reflects much more advanced head gaskets?

    Anyway, more to follow on this subject I imagine!
    Yes, apparently so.

    I think the first factor is what kind of bolts one manufacturer or another (or sometimes the same - more to follow) decide to use.

    Renault has reusable bolts. BMW doesn't. Nor does Peugeot. They rely on stretching the bolts to the point where the engineers have determined the correct pressure is applied to the head gasket/whatever. At 60Nm or so Renault recommends it is unlikely the bolt would suffer any structural deformation. But at 200Nm, you will actually feel the bolts stretching as you do it up!

    Perhaps it is a sign of old times too. In the past, perhaps manufacturers wanted to keep maintenance costs down and designed for infinite reliability, long service and simple servicing. These days, it's easier (and more profitable) to teach the customer to "leave it to us" and "buy a new one".

    Either way.

    I have a 807 block here that won't see further service and an angle grinder. Bring your own beer and if it turns out I'm right and there are no inserts you owe me a beer.

    Not that I encourage anyone to play with beer and angle grinders at the same time or in the wrong sequence.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 20th September 2017 at 06:36 PM.
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    Hi
    I am not familiar with this motor so cannot say whether or not it has steel inserts but I would be surprised if it has. Aluminium can be just as strong as cast iron depending on the alloy. The problem with it is its softness. So you must be careful to not remove the threads with damaged studs, as a burr on a steel thread can strip out the aluminium thread easily. That is the reason why schlitzaugen says to clean up the thread, which I say is to check it is not burred or damaged in any way. If you drop a bolt or stud it can be damaged on the first thread and that is fatal if not removed.
    So a check that the threads can be hand fitted easily to full depth is always good into alloy. Then lube as recommended before fitting. If you use molly grease on threads and under the heads you might need to be careful that the original torque is not overtightening the studs/bolts and causing stripping. The original recommendation of oiling or dry should be followed to ensure you do not strip the thread.
    Jaahn

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Kim's suggestion is a good idea, but most of the time can't be used with head bolts simply because you need to grease them to go in and then the thread sealant doesn't work. Manufacturers warn against using loctite or other stuff on head bolts as well, so you're back to square one. In places where I am allowed, I just use some piss weak loctite, because that never moves and protects against any undesirable ingress. That's just cheap insurance.

    If you really want to, I would suggest some of that thread lock that creeps in (the one you apply after the bolt is in so you don't misread the torque when doing them up) on the exposed main cap bolts on the engine, but that said, I have never found corrosion there. I did find corrosion in the bottom of head bolt threads, god knows how anything got in there. One possibility is head gasket leaks between the water jacket and the bolt holes?
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  24. #24
    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    Not wishing to be particularly pedantic here, but my understanding of specified torque values and the use of a torque wrench was to ensure that without any kind of sealant that bolts, nuts, set screws, etc. remained tight and would not loosen off and I'm aware of the practice of re-torquing such animals after a short period of use to doubly ensure nothing comes undone. As manufacturers warn against using thread lock I'm inclined to avoid it's use and put my faith in the Warren/Brown and Tefgel anti corrosion and lubrication properties instead.
    It's another lovely day! Again!

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    COL
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    When doing head gaskets on these engines the factory manual say to clean out the threads in the block, make sure there is no debris or oil in the holes. Clean the head bolts threads.

    Then lightly oil the threads of the bolts, the bolt heads and washers.

    Torque the head bolts down to 30 LB/Ft in the sequence shown (which is basically starting in the centre and working out)

    Then torque the head bolts down to 50-55 LB/FT in the same sequence above.

    Then after so many Km (can't remember at present) re-torque the head bolts by undoing a quarter turn and torque to 50-55 LB/Ft
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    Regards Col

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