R16TS Engine Questions
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Thread: R16TS Engine Questions

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! R8philSA's Avatar
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    Default R16TS Engine Questions

    Hi Fellow Froggers.

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    Need some advice from the engine technical people.

    I'm fitting up the chain tensioner on 'BARNIE's' engine and I know you have warned me before that the Workshop Manual has mistakes through it from the Technical French to English translation.

    1. At the top of Page B-49 in the text that follows it states "" Turn the socket clockwise until the pad carrier assembly touches the chain"" The more I turned it clockwise the closer the pad went to the carrier NOT the chain. So am I dyslexic or is this just another technical language mess up ???
    I'm thinking the socket referred to is actually an Allen Key.

    2. On Page B-51 3rd paragraph is states "" Turn the engine to bring No.1 cylinder to the firing position (cams on No.4 cylinder on balance) Is on balance referring to the opposite side of the lobe (flat side) ??? Reason for asking is my valve timing marks on the cam sprocket and crankshaft sprocket are opposite each other and I thought if I looked at the No.4 cam lobes they would both be on the flat side of the lobes, one is and one is just making it.

    Be interested to hear from the experienced.

    Thanks Guys
    Phil

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  2. #2
    COL
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    I think its just the translation, I put one of these in a few weeks ago but can't remember which way I turned the allen key.

    Remember that cylinder #1 is at the flywheel end of the motor.

    When I did my cam timing, all I did was align the marks with a straight edge as shown in the manual, there are little triangles on each sprocket that you need to position so they are not covered by the chain. These triangles will need to be aligned with the centre of the crankshaft and cam shaft. Make sure the non tensioner part of the change is tight when you align the timing marks.

    Hope this helps Phil.
    Regards Col

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    Normally when the No. 1 cylinder is at TDC then the valves on No.4 are equally operated. On a 17TS say down by 2 or 3 mm but equal. Not sure about the amount for a 16 but both tappets should be equally operated.

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    Thanks Col and Sunroof.

    Yes I'm good with the valve timing, and it was a question on the cam lobes on N0.4 that was concerning me. I'll take a good look in the morning, it was getting dark and I was tired.
    Phil

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    Hi Phil
    The statement "on balance" i would take to be what I learnt as "valves rocking". That is the point when if you rock the crank foward and back a bit, one valve goes up and the other down just a little bit and vica versa. A classic way to find the approx TDC of any cyl. As Sunroof says 'equally operated.'
    I used that just the other day to find the correct timing mark on a cam wheel with 4 bloody marks on each cam wheel. It had been turned with the belt off inadvertently ? Crap design and I have never seen that before ! KIA engine.
    Jaahn
    Cheers Jaahn
    PS does not work with a 203 Pug motor Odd timing ??

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    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Phil. It doesn't matter which valves are doing what. At the stage you are at, it can be either 1 or 4. The only difference is that the mark on the gear will be either at the top of the gear or 180 degrees away at the bottom of the gear. It has to line up with a straight edge. The only time you need to worry about 1 or 4 is when you insert the distributor drive and do the ignition timing.

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    Ok, got it. Thanks Jaahn and Frans. Thought as much but just making sure before the covering panel/head goes on.
    Cheers Phil

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    All interesting! It does remind me what a great bit of alloy casting that engine is. Wasn't it the world's first pressure diecast alloy block?

    Cheers
    JohnW

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    Still can remember the 'oomph' that 1565 engine gave in all gears, back in '72. One of the great engines.
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    Gone but not forgotten
    '71 16 TS, '72 16 TL, '74 15TS,'82 20TS Series 2, '85 25 GTX. '49 L15,

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    Hi Frans and others that might be interested.

    Just reading what you wrote Frans and wondering what your thoughts are on this odd happening.
    ""The only time you need to worry about 1 or 4 is when you insert the distributor drive and do the ignition timing"" As you quoted I'm at that stage today BUT something odd is happening!!
    You might remember when I started this overhaul that the original 16TS Camshaft had 3 teeth ripped of the Distributor drive gear. So I got another R16TS standard camshaft from Brian Turner (Taralgon Vic) which came with the matching distributor/oil pump drive.
    When I put the old distributor/oil pump drive into the block and match it up to the new camshaft the 53 degrees asked for by the workshop manual lines up perfectly. However, when I put the new distributor drive in to match it up with the new camshaft it doesn't line up exactly.
    I guess it's close enough and just means I might have to twist the distributor around a bit more to get the desired effect, but seems unusual to me. You would think in mass production that all R16TS distributor/oil pump drives would be identical
    Anyway thought I would add a couple of photos just to see what the experienced say about this odd happening.
    And yes, everything has been checked and double checked just to make sure.
    Cheers
    Phil

    R16TS Engine Questions-dscn2115.jpgR16TS Engine Questions-dscn2118.jpgR16TS Engine Questions-dscn2120.jpg



    Quote Originally Posted by Frans View Post
    Phil. It doesn't matter which valves are doing what. At the stage you are at, it can be either 1 or 4. The only difference is that the mark on the gear will be either at the top of the gear or 180 degrees away at the bottom of the gear. It has to line up with a straight edge. The only time you need to worry about 1 or 4 is when you insert the distributor drive and do the ignition timing.

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    Are you sure you can't get the 53 deg right if you move to the next tooth on the dizzy drive? You need to turn it backwards (i.e. anti-clockwise) a bit more before inserting so the next tooth engages the camshaft drive.
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    Absolute guarantee. Another tooth back or forward only makes it worse. I can't understand it either!! I even thought it might be the wear in the teeth, no such luck, all teeth on both camshaft and dizzy drive are in good shape. I even thought I might have had a 16TL dizzy drive but it definitely has the small flat ground on the larger portion indicating 16TS. Weird
    Cheers
    Phil


    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    Are you sure you can't get the 53 deg right if you move to the next tooth on the dizzy drive? You need to turn it backwards (i.e. anti-clockwise) a bit more before inserting so the next tooth engages the camshaft drive.

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Phil,

    I'm afraid that over here I do my own thing again.

    Turn the engine with no1 on TDC,(lobes of no1 downwards). Insert the distributor in the engine without the drive, turn the distributor so that it is sitting in such a way that you can get maximum adjustment out of it. Do this because the rocker cover causes restrictions in the dizzy movement. Then remove the cap and note the notch that locates the cap. Turn the rotor shaft so that it points towards no1 and get it as close as possible to just before the points open. (Rotor turns clockwise). Carefully remove the dizzy and note the offset of the drive notches at the bottom. Insert the dizzy drive now to match the notches's position. If you install the dizzy now the rotor should face the no1 cylinder. I don't care what the book says because now I know that when I put the cap on the HT lead that goes in pointing towards no1 is no1.

    Then it is easy in future when you remove the cap to work on the points or condensor you can replace the cap and the the lead of no 1 cylinder is the lead on the cap pointing to no1 cylinder.



    The way the book tells you the no 1 lead is not even close to no 1 cylinder. This way it is so quick and easy to return the leads to the plugs, put no 1 lead in to its plug because that is the one pointing to no 1, then no 4 because it is pointing to no 4 and then 2 & 3.

    So, the angle you are putting it in doesn't really matter as long as you have enough adjustment on the dizzy to set the timing correct. The position of my drive is totally different to the book, I think they make things difficult for no reason at all.

    Frans.
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    I Agree Frans, I use the same method to set the dissi to make sure there is enough space to adjust/rotate the dissi beside the rocker cover.

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    COL
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    Quote Originally Posted by R8philSA View Post
    Hi Frans and others that might be interested.

    Just reading what you wrote Frans and wondering what your thoughts are on this odd happening.
    ""The only time you need to worry about 1 or 4 is when you insert the distributor drive and do the ignition timing"" As you quoted I'm at that stage today BUT something odd is happening!!
    You might remember when I started this overhaul that the original 16TS Camshaft had 3 teeth ripped of the Distributor drive gear. So I got another R16TS standard camshaft from Brian Turner (Taralgon Vic) which came with the matching distributor/oil pump drive.
    When I put the old distributor/oil pump drive into the block and match it up to the new camshaft the 53 degrees asked for by the workshop manual lines up perfectly. However, when I put the new distributor drive in to match it up with the new camshaft it doesn't line up exactly.
    I guess it's close enough and just means I might have to twist the distributor around a bit more to get the desired effect, but seems unusual to me. You would think in mass production that all R16TS distributor/oil pump drives would be identical
    Anyway thought I would add a couple of photos just to see what the experienced say about this odd happening.
    And yes, everything has been checked and double checked just to make sure.
    Cheers
    Phil

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    Not sure what is going on there Phil. I am assuming that you have not move the crank/camshaft when doing these comparisons.
    Regards Col

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    I like your comments Frans and they make good sense. I felt as much. What does it matter as long as you have room to turn the dizzy for timing purposes.
    I'll take your suggestion tomorrow and set it all up.
    This is why I put a few things out there from time to time, it's the gaining of wisdom from those that have been there and done that.
    Thanks again for your time to answer.

    I took Brian's R8 for a run today. Wow, that little baby fly's and handles very well. He was praising your experience in setting the car up and it really has paid off. I only took it up to 4500RPM in the lower gears but it got there so quickly. He wished I had of taken it up to 6500 but there really is nowhere near where I live that is really safe to do so and the Police love this area.

    Cheers for now
    Phil

    Quote Originally Posted by Frans View Post
    Phil,

    I'm afraid that over here I do my own thing again.

    Turn the engine with no1 on TDC,(lobes of no1 downwards). Insert the distributor in the engine without the drive, turn the distributor so that it is sitting in such a way that you can get maximum adjustment out of it. Do this because the rocker cover causes restrictions in the dizzy movement. Then remove the cap and note the notch that locates the cap. Turn the rotor shaft so that it points towards no1 and get it as close as possible to just before the points open. (Rotor turns clockwise). Carefully remove the dizzy and note the offset of the drive notches at the bottom. Insert the dizzy drive now to match the notches's position. If you install the dizzy now the rotor should face the no1 cylinder. I don't care what the book says because now I know that when I put the cap on the HT lead that goes in pointing towards no1 is no1.

    Then it is easy in future when you remove the cap to work on the points or condensor you can replace the cap and the the lead of no 1 cylinder is the lead on the cap pointing to no1 cylinder.



    The way the book tells you the no 1 lead is not even close to no 1 cylinder. This way it is so quick and easy to return the leads to the plugs, put no 1 lead in to its plug because that is the one pointing to no 1, then no 4 because it is pointing to no 4 and then 2 & 3.

    So, the angle you are putting it in doesn't really matter as long as you have enough adjustment on the dizzy to set the timing correct. The position of my drive is totally different to the book, I think they make things difficult for no reason at all.

    Frans.
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  17. #17
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R8philSA View Post
    Absolute guarantee. Another tooth back or forward only makes it worse. I can't understand it either!! I even thought it might be the wear in the teeth, no such luck, all teeth on both camshaft and dizzy drive are in good shape. I even thought I might have had a 16TL dizzy drive but it definitely has the small flat ground on the larger portion indicating 16TS. Weird
    Cheers
    Phil
    That leaves the camshaft.

    Are you sure it is what you think it is?

    Frans is right about setting up the dizzy wherever you want, but the fact that you can't line up the drive as per manual might suggest you have a foreign camshaft. How did you check the camshaft is the correct one?
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by R8philSA View Post
    I like your comments Frans and they make good sense. I felt as much. What does it matter as long as you have room to turn the dizzy for timing purposes.
    I'll take your suggestion tomorrow and set it all up.
    This is why I put a few things out there from time to time, it's the gaining of wisdom from those that have been there and done that.
    Thanks again for your time to answer.

    I took Brian's R8 for a run today. Wow, that little baby fly's and handles very well. He was praising your experience in setting the car up and it really has paid off. I only took it up to 4500RPM in the lower gears but it got there so quickly. He wished I had of taken it up to 6500 but there really is nowhere near where I live that is really safe to do so and the Police love this area.

    Cheers for now
    Phil
    Thank you. From the specs that we've agreed on when the engine was built I can assure you that it will outrun a Gordini and many more with reasonable ease.

    Frans.
    Old enough to know better
    Young enough to do it anyway.

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    My R17TS dizzy drive doesn't line up accuratly either. I even went to the trouble of taking the timing cover off and double checking the timing position etc etc. But the only thing I have found is that when the cam was reground rather than 42 72 72 42 valve openings etc mine has been ground 42 72 72 52. Not sure why and never went back and asked because it was some years previous and the motor had some quite few thousand in between times. I always have had trouble with this motor starting without fouling the plugs, even with the two different factory recommended plug types. However I recently tried irridium plugs and it runs better than before and doesn't foul. Yes the fouling problem occured with my electronic points and super coil and even with a stock 2 barrel Weber off my R15 as a test. As the engine was rebuilt by a previous owner perhaps the compression has been increased I have never checked the head height. Perhaps I might one day.

  20. #20
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    The guy that supplied it only ever had R16TSs in his garage. So I took it that the standard cam supplied was in fact R16TS. I actually got the angle better through taking up a bit of slack, (48degress) When I put the old and new dizzy drives together and drew parallel lines from the distributor slot down the side of the dizzy drive I noted that the line on the old one touch the leading edge of one tooth and on the new one it hit the trailing edge of the tooth. So there is the 5 degree difference. Doesn't matter I'm convinced the distributor will have room to twist around for ignition timing.

    Hopefully head on tomorrow.

    Cheers
    Phil



    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    That leaves the camshaft.

    Are you sure it is what you think it is?

    Frans is right about setting up the dizzy wherever you want, but the fact that you can't line up the drive as per manual might suggest you have a foreign camshaft. How did you check the camshaft is the correct one?

  21. #21
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    When you say 'fowling' are we talking oil fowling or over fueling ?? Did the plugs look furry/fluffy carbon or ash grey ??
    Thanks for the tip on the irridium plugs, let me know what the manufacturer name and Number on the plugs please.
    Cheers
    Phil



    Quote Originally Posted by Sunroof View Post
    My R17TS dizzy drive doesn't line up accuratly either. I even went to the trouble of taking the timing cover off and double checking the timing position etc etc. But the only thing I have found is that when the cam was reground rather than 42 72 72 42 valve openings etc mine has been ground 42 72 72 52. Not sure why and never went back and asked because it was some years previous and the motor had some quite few thousand in between times. I always have had trouble with this motor starting without fouling the plugs, even with the two different factory recommended plug types. However I recently tried irridium plugs and it runs better than before and doesn't foul. Yes the fouling problem occured with my electronic points and super coil and even with a stock 2 barrel Weber off my R15 as a test. As the engine was rebuilt by a previous owner perhaps the compression has been increased I have never checked the head height. Perhaps I might one day.

  22. #22
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    Yes Frans, I believe you right about that. I've been in a Gordini at full throttle in 3 of the 5 gears and I never got the kink in my neck like Brian's gave.
    I'm dying to find out what my BARNIEs engine will do. I believe I'll have to treat the R10 G/box with respect, can't afford the conversion yet!!
    Head should go on tomorrow, then into storage until I finish the body, brakes and interior. maybe by December. I'll loose a couple more weeks in November to attend the Geelong Revival Victoria, you should come over for that in 2018, there are a few overseas visitors coming this year.

    Cheers for now
    Phil


    Quote Originally Posted by Frans View Post
    Thank you. From the specs that we've agreed on when the engine was built I can assure you that it will outrun a Gordini and many more with reasonable ease.

    Frans.

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