R16TS Oil Pump - PROBLEMS
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Thread: R16TS Oil Pump - PROBLEMS

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! R8philSA's Avatar
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    Default R16TS Oil Pump - PROBLEMS

    Well Guys, here's one for the engineering people.

    I am working through the cleaning up of BARNIE's Block. So today I decided to clean up the oil pump and check the tolerances.

    What I didn't realise was the very different oil pump set up in the R16TS block as compared with the R8, R10 or R12 engines. Different in the sense that the oil pump drive gear is actually a 5 pointed fixed rotor on the end of the oil pump drive shaft which then fits into an outer rotor which then in turn rotates in the BLOCK !!

    Here lies my problem!!! The outer rotor is badly corroded into the BLOCK. This engine was in the weather for years ( with the rocker box cover of) and water has got down into the sump and the result was the outer rotor made of steel has corroded within the alloy block.

    I have started soaking in Penetrine but this could take months!

    So I'm open for suggestions, and the option of scrapping the BLOCK is totally out of the question.

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    Any helpfull suggestions would be very appreciated.

    Cheers
    Phil

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    I have had success in the past by soaking and shocking it with a brass drift. Give the outer a few taps on top and then at an angle trying to rotate it.
    Frans

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    Thanks Frans.
    I'll give it a good soak for a few days and then give it a try.
    Cheers
    Phil


    Quote Originally Posted by Frans View Post
    I have had success in the past by soaking and shocking it with a brass drift. Give the outer a few taps on top and then at an angle trying to rotate it.
    Frans

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    Get some Chemsearch Yield. We used this in my previous Engineering maintenance life.

    Yield

    Costs about $30 a spray can but works way better than anything else we found

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    COL
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    Common diesel works too, just a little cheaper and may take a little longer.
    Regards Col

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    Thanks Driven and Col for your good suggestions, much appreciated.

    At the moment I have it soaking in WD40. I managed to slide a 0.002" feeler gauge into the crack where the Rotor faces the oil pump delivery housing. Went around it for 1 1/2hours and managed to get it down about 8mm. So I'll keep at it tomorrow and see if I can get down the sides further. (Great way to destroy a feeler gauge!!)

    Couple of other options up my sleeve, Heating up the outer oil pump housing and then ice on the steel rotor, then taping with a brass drift.

    If all else fails I might have to call on the resources of a local engineering firm to drill and tap two threads into the outer rotor and make up a puller to extract the outer rotor.

    Bugger of a job right when I needed to get into the assembly of the bottom end !!!

    Cheers
    Phil

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    Phil a little heat works as well this can be done by the way we use to thaw pipes ! The use of a welder at low ampere on each side of the shaft if you can get a good connection just cycle the steel a few times to expand than cool it as you suggested with penetrant oil . I just bought my wife an induction stove top it only heats magnetic objects so we had to buy some new cook ware that was magnetic ! I am just waiting for the right opportunity to try using it on a aluminum and steel object to heat the magnetic part with out heating the non ferrous object . Mind you it will probably be when she is out shopping or something !!

    Just a thought

    Manic GT


    Quote Originally Posted by R8philSA View Post
    Thanks Driven and Col for your good suggestions, much appreciated.

    At the moment I have it soaking in WD40. I managed to slide a 0.002" feeler gauge into the crack where the Rotor faces the oil pump delivery housing. Went around it for 1 1/2hours and managed to get it down about 8mm. So I'll keep at it tomorrow and see if I can get down the sides further. (Great way to destroy a feeler gauge!!)

    Couple of other options up my sleeve, Heating up the outer oil pump housing and then ice on the steel rotor, then taping with a brass drift.

    If all else fails I might have to call on the resources of a local engineering firm to drill and tap two threads into the outer rotor and make up a puller to extract the outer rotor.

    Bugger of a job right when I needed to get into the assembly of the bottom end !!!

    Cheers
    Phil
    Last edited by manicgt; 27th July 2017 at 10:19 PM. Reason: added a little more info
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    Thanks for that Manic GT, I'll be trying all these ideas until my last option.
    Phil

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    You can buy freeze and release (a Loctite product). That works very well with things like these, I am talking from personal experience. It has a penetrating oil in the formula, so it will creep in and freeze your part, shrinking it to make rust crumble and release. I have managed to release a sheared stud in an alloy block that way. The stud was too hardened by thermal cycling (exhaust side - and the reason why it sheared in the first place) to drill out. And too long.
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    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  10. #10
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    Well Guys, I finally got the outer oil pump rotor out of the block.

    Took me 15days on average of 2 1/2hours a day. Talk about try my patience I went through three 0.003" feeler gauges using them as saw blades to cut through the corrosion which was deep all the way down to the bottom of the rotor. Loads of all different penetrines, new words I never thought existed, heat etc. Made up a Tee handled extractor and finally shock loaded it into submission. Cleaned it all up, both Rotor and block oil pump hole, and it's fine.

    So now it's onward and upward with " BARNIE " I dream I might have BARNIE ready for This years Geelong Revival so we'll see.

    Thanks for all the good suggestions, I tried them all.

    Cheers for now, Phil

    R16TS Oil Pump - PROBLEMS-dscn1969.jpgR16TS Oil Pump - PROBLEMS-dscn1967.jpgR16TS Oil Pump - PROBLEMS-dscn1981.jpg
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  11. #11
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    Great outcome Phil. Extracted without damage! Except to self.... Doesn't take much fine particulate stuff to jam a 3-4 thou annulus it seems! I will remember that method and hope never to need it.

    Cheers
    JohnW

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  12. #12
    COL
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    Good stuff Phil, you have more patience than me.
    Regards Col

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    Well Col, I can assure you I didn't think I had that much patience either !!!

    You should have heard the Hooray when I saw it turn just a little bit. Neighbours probably thought I won the lottery

    Phil


    Quote Originally Posted by COL View Post
    Good stuff Phil, you have more patience than me.
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  14. #14
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    Keeping in mind John, this barn Find had been left under a tree for probably 10 -15 years with the bonnet up and the engine lid fully opened. If that wasn't enough, some dude also took the rockerbox cover of and shoved it down the side of the engine, so all the rain, dust, sticks, leaves somehow found their way through the engine and into the sump!! hence the corroded Oil rotor and seized oil pump relief valve (fixed now).

    Take a look at what the sump looked like when I found it !!

    Cheers
    Phil

    R16TS Oil Pump - PROBLEMS-dscn1665.jpgR16TS Oil Pump - PROBLEMS-dscn1667.jpg


    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    Great outcome Phil. Extracted without damage! Except to self.... Doesn't take much fine particulate stuff to jam a 3-4 thou annulus it seems! I will remember that method and hope never to need it.

    Cheers
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  15. #15
    COL
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    Quote Originally Posted by R8philSA View Post
    Keeping in mind John, this barn Find had been left under a tree for probably 10 -15 years with the bonnet up and the engine lid fully opened. If that wasn't enough, some dude also took the rockerbox cover of and shoved it down the side of the engine, so all the rain, dust, sticks, leaves somehow found their way through the engine and into the sump!! hence the corroded Oil rotor and seized oil pump relief valve (fixed now).

    Take a look at what the sump looked like when I found it !!

    Cheers
    Phil

    Click image for larger version. 

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    That looks like the sump of a Renault Virage engine I once had the pleasure of pulling down, the head had that much sludge on top that you could not see the head bolts and the sump had that much sludge in the sump that it covered the strainer and caused oil pressure problems. I'm guessing the cause was lack of oil changes and was the reason the car was taken off the road.
    Regards Col

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  16. #16
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    Haven't seen a baffel like that in any of my sumps.

  17. #17
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    Especially made for rally cars. Helps stop oil pump sucking air under sever braking conditions.



    Quote Originally Posted by Sunroof View Post
    Haven't seen a baffel like that in any of my sumps.

  18. #18
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    The sumps used in circuit rcing have more baffles to minimise the amount of oil moving to the side or back of the sump in hard cornering and acceleration with sticky tyres on high grip race tracks. Or you can fit a dry sump system.

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